/ffs/ - Fujo Fandom Sperging

>>12185
If you're upset about not being able to ship yourself with a 2D husbando you need a partner and therapy. You can't have a relationship with a fictional character.

>>12188

Having real partner who actually giving a shit would be way better than living in delusional fantasy with fake husbando, surprising some delulu yumes didn't get thrown into mental asylum.

Tumblr and Twitter yumes really drive me nuts.

>>12139

Had I write male oc with tits, I'd just refer him as femboy, people would see him as a troon but in my eyes, he's always male who happened to get boobjob but keeping the balls, pp & man voice. Basically making fucked up shit oc just to see woke trannies seething. At least being called transphobic is lesser of evil instead of making him preachy troon Gary stu pandering to sjw woke fuckwads.

And yeah….trannies invading every social media, not even YouTube is safe from troon shit.

>>12188
>>12191
Having a real partner puts you at risk for abuse, rape, stds etc. Specially if you're someone like that anon with low self-esteemed which attracts the worst men. I can understand any woman who wants to choose a fictional character instead. Thinking about your favorite characters being romantically involved and having sex everyday isn't exactly 'normal' or grounded in reality either. Many BL writers made BL and otome/shoujo and there are many fans of both. This yume vs. fujo shit isn't a real issue.

>>12193

Jeez, no wonder I stay single after what you said about getting worst men for a partner nonna.

Though I ain't much of yume myself, I indulged in yaoi for escapism, surprisingly there are more fujos who actually can't stand RL men, most men in RL are hypocritical, misogynistic and homophobic assholes who treated fujos like utter shit.

>>12185
there’s really no other way to improve low self esteem besides reminding yourself how retarded that line of thinking is. it’s illogical. it doesn’t make sense. it’s a constant process and it’s not easy but there’s no other way. you have to change your entire way of thinking and values. your low self esteem won’t go away just because you get a husbando. (giving you the benefit of the doubt that this post is genuine)

>>12195
>>12185
The real solution is to acquire a canonically pathetic husbando with no standards, like Zenitsu or Toritsuka.

>>12195
I see low self esteem as an extreme effect of main character syndrome. They think that their value to the world should be greater, but it's insignificant, not realizing that the world is bigger than their physical looks or lack of a talent.

There will always be some woman prettier because it's subjective. There will always be someone more talented because you simply were not born like fucking Willy Wonka. The Johnny Depp version.

You MCS'ed so hard you went full circle with it. (General you.)

I think once people get over this and accept that human society is greater than a space of 1000 people, then they can move on from screaming on twitter about how their f/o is a legitimate relationship.

But I would love to see these people put married on a government document and then look some guy in the eyes and say Itachi Uchiha.

>>12198
Most people care about their immediate environment and how it judges them. I don't think people with low self-esteem compare themselves to the entire world, why would they when it doesn't matter? Honestly I don't understand your point and how it's related to yumeshipping.

>>12196
that would just be ignoring the problem. she’d still have horrificly low self worth. It’s the same mindset as trying to get a boyfriend to fix your problems but all that does in reality is make it worse. I lowkey think it’s a troll post though

>>12193
>I can understand any woman who wants to choose a fictional character instead

it's like saying I can't travel in real life so might as well enjoy seeing photos of it. Also especially when it comes to relationships, no fiction will ever be able to replace a real relationship with another human, ever. Even the best fiction won't give you the emotion of finding love with someone else, this doompilling is boring.
>Thinking about your favorite characters being romantically involved and having sex everyday isn't exactly 'normal'

a fujo thinking about yaoi everyday would be at most a pervert, but at least she is not making a boyfriend out of some fictional guy replacing what she wants irl.

>>12202
I mean, being aware that Brad Pitt or Jimin or Sephiroth likely wouldn't be into (You) isn't low self esteem. It's just realistic. I only ever get thoughts like 'I would/wish I could date this character' if I get the feeling that I could have a chance with them in RL, which is not often but there are a few cute nerdy virgin types in mundane enough settings. There are plenty of characters who are hot but would be terrible as an actual partner. Either way, I'm only interested in shipping canon characters. I haven't shipped a selfinsert OC since I discovered yaoi as a kid.

>>12199
nta but i feel like she was referring to the people with low self esteem that compare themselves to anime or movie characters, which are in a immediate environment in a way.

I'm seeing more and more tweets by Japanese people insulting western yumejoshi on my tl. I'll talk about it more once I'm back home and will post screenshots but so far they're mostly insulting a russian yumejoshi who's into JJK becauseshe reuses official logos of the title, Gege Akutami's name and Mappa's brand name with the copyright logo, etc. to make her OC donut steel art next to official art of the JJK characters look more believable. It's funny, Japanese fans are saying they're pissed these yumejoshi use official tags and don't hide their stuff with private accounts and that western fanfics are crazy.

>>12211
Yes. That's my point. Their world view is unrealistic and narrow minded. Taking a step back from seeing yourself as the MC of an anime can help a lot with shedding self esteem issues. You don't get immediate, instant perfect boyfriend irl. And while there are other factors that come into play like bullying, and undiagnosed personality disorders, an effort to de-center your world view from a movie star type of perspective helps.

Not to mention social media has gotten to a point where the idea that it being an act simply does not register. An influencer I followed for a year kept posting her trips to Disney Sea and all the meet ups she has with anime industry leaders on top of her seemingly perfect life with a Final Fantasy character as her legitimate f/o. It took me months to see the cracks in her make up and how repetitive it all was, stop comparing myself, and unfollow.

>>12212
I saw that on my TL today as well and though I hate yumejos with a burning passion for being ego hungry beasts and that particular yume being that exact type to have her OC everywhere even replacing preexisting characters in the work for her OC, I think the japanese are being way too autistic over the whole copyright nonsense.
If she's going to get sued, then let her get sued.
"This looks too close to the official and uses official logos, people may mistake it for the real work!!"
Anybody with a brain knows that it's fanmade, it's a joke. But again, if she'll get sued for using logos and JJK copyright then let her get sued.
Also, the autistic hatred japanese have over commissions of "commercial works"(fanart commissions) is so stupid too.

>>12193
>Having a real partner puts you at risk for abuse, rape, stds etc
You could describe any part of normal life as something to avoid because of the dangers involved. There isn't a part of life that doesn't come with risk and it's insane to suggest that fiction is a replacement for experiencing life.

>Thinking about your favorite characters being romantically involved and having sex everyday isn't exactly 'normal' or grounded in reality either.
Only it is? It doesn't matter if it's every day, multiple times a day or once a year. Engaging in fiction be it romance or sex is perfectly normal. Using it as a mechanism to avoid dealing with life is when it becomes unhealthy.

I find that people with low self-esteem tend to gravitate towards hideous/fat characters the most. At least the women who stan/yume/husbando attractive characters have a modicum of self-respect. Those who love disgusting fatties or general ugly and unconventional men secretly hate themselves and have no respect for themselves. It's like, not even in the safest haven in your mind do you see yourself ever holding hands with Leon Kennedy or Sephiroth and that's fucking sad.

>>12218
I see ironic TIFs or insecure women gravitate towards ugly characters as a form of safe sexuality

>>12219
All I can say to that is that these women desperately need to love themselves more. The objective attractiveness of your husbando is directly correlated to the person's self-respect.

>>12215
>Anybody with a brain knows that it's fanmade, it's a joke.
Don't ever underestimate JJK fans stupidity. Especially the ones who checked untranslated leaks on tiktok and can't tell you anything about the story. These same people often say JJK is bad or disappointing because of things that literally never happened in the manga or the anime ever, after reading headcanons on social media from random people who checked the pages without reading anything in the speech bubbles.

By the way, Japanese fans complaining about that also have an issue with her making money off commissions with fanart and selling things on etsy. It's really a matter of how Japanese fans have to worry about lawsuits and crazy fines if a publishing company doesn't like them. Days ago I saw a Japanese twitter user complaining that a very old blog of theirs that they never deleted got them in trouble for copyright infrigement because that person posted a song and they were fined the equivalent several thousands of dollars instead of being warned to take down the blog. Companies don't give a fuck in Japan I guess? In practice it doesn't happen with doujinshi and fanart but in practice it could happen and fans who draw their OCs holding Gojo's hand or Yuji and Megumi kissing and selling that stuff in doujinshi could leading to massive fines if Shueisha changed their mind, maybe it's more paranoia than autism in that case.

Remember this is the same country where Nintendo is from, and Nintendo is absolutely crazy when it comes to roms and emulation. Maybe these rabid fans from Japan are worried that a random Russian artist will indirectly ruin things for everyone else? It's kind of like how Disney is crazy with its intellectual properties so they forced a father to not put a picture of Spiderman on his very young son's grave or coffin. And Japanese nerds don't get that their rules aren't nearly as strict outside of Japan because it's very unlikely anyone outside of Asia is going to get sued over fanart. Companies are barely starting to go after illegal manga websites now, they're late as fuck.

>>12221
this is so mentally ill and paranoid, also the russian fan's OC looks very nice imo

>>12222
I was a bit curious and in the tweet's reply some people said the artist wrote a fanfic where Gojo brutally rapes her OC like… no wonder many people dislike her. Damn.

>>12223
to each their own lol

>>12218
Was in husbando circles for two decades. In my experience the ones who go for unconventional characters, especially villains or western cartoon characters, are extremely loud and proud Im soooo quirkyyY!!! types. It's not unusual to see them being in charge of a community or chat space, and acting like a BNF. I would describe them as obnoxiously overconfident. You have to keep in mind that there's a big incentive to be The One to make a name for yourself in those spaces. That means finding characters nobody else is going to compete over, that stand out to others as unusual. They also often get the benefit of sloppy, inconsistent, or lacking characterization in the source material, so they can write whatever scenarios and personality they like onto the character without anyone questioning it. They get to be the recognized authority on something and if you dispute literally anything they say you're disrespecting their pure love, of course they would know what toothpaste he likes eating. It's an ego trip for little internet Karens who were kicked out of college clubs and banned from sports for throwing tantrums when they couldn't get their way.

>>12225
Interesting! I would love a high-effort analysis chart on yumes by husbandos along with fujos by pairing / ship / source material. I've seen a lot of TIFs with unconventionally unattractive cartoon husbandos confidently sperg out over them in a way they probably wouldn't if the husbando was attractive or popular. It would suck to be a yume with a popular husbando.

I've always been kind of an on-and-off "yume", in the sense that I enjoy otome games and occasionally imagining cute and spicy scenarios with my favorite male characters, mostly focusing on him and imagining "myself" as a blank faceless self-insert. When I first discovered yume communities, I thought they'd be full of women who do it casually for fun and just enjoy squeeing about their fav characters, but what I found instead were some of the most mentally ill individuals I've ever seen. That fugly lads gacha having some of the worst offenders. I don't understand how they take that shit so seriously, I get having preferences and landmines but I cannot for the life of me understand how they get so pissy about non-canon fanart of their husbandos being gay to the point they act like it's an active threat.

A while ago, I was browsing DLsite and found out it has an "articles" subsite where users can basically blog about whatever. One of the most popular posts I saw was a list of otome/TL circles that made statements clarifying that they specifically only create works where the male characters are exclusively devoted to the heroine, with multiple of them having to specify that they'd never ever ever add any sexual or romantic interactions between two men, I think one even went as far as to say that their MMF 3P works would have 0 interaction of any kind between the two guys. I guess to their credit, the person who made that post said that it's just personal preference and everyone can like what they like, but it's such a wild mentality. Most if not all of those circles produce yandere do-S maledom slop too. That's a recurring theme I noticed with particularly unhinged yumes, they like imagining their husbandos being psychotically and violently obsessed with their self-inserts.

>>12228
I'm >>12225 and that's crazy to me too. I'd never really sought out and interacted with otome fandoms, just watched anime adaptations and chatted about them in the places I was already posting in (LJ, 4chan, tumblr, skype, oekaki), but it wasn't like that in the 00s and 10s as far as I saw. The husbandofags were a niche extremist group that adopted similar cultish and sometimes pseudoschizophrenic paranoid behavior to dedicated waifufags, and generally shared the same spaces as them. Over time I saw it branch out to twitter and people who didn't go on image boards, and that's when I started seeing things like public hostility to fandom and big spenders who filled entire rooms for clout. The whole defending your husbando from ships existed but it was something where people privately griped that they didn't like a pornographic image or they saw a shipper saying a ship was canon but here's an essay on why it's open ended ackshually. That originated in venting your personal feelings as someone who knew they cared too deeply for a fictional character and didn't have anywhere else to say why it bothered you. It was often performative too, to show how devoted you were and that you truly didn't accept anyone else taking "your" partner. The whole ownership thing is its own rabbit hole.

I never saw that shit in wider fandom, I always saw slash shippers and het shippers mingle and separate where needed. Everyone was free to joke that the otome protagonist had better chemistry with her female best friend than the boys who happen to be childhood friends/rivals, that sort of thing. Now it's like this super embarrassing secret culture has leaked and regular ass people are throwing themselves at acting it out. For example, on one waifu board, we had a guy who would talk about his waifu verbally and physically abusing him for thinking lewd thoughts about other anime girls or going out to meet with his friends, and this guy had a fucking meltdown over someone uploading NSFW art of his waifu on pixiv every other week. That she would never do that and this was practically a criminal offense against her canon, and his waifu was watching to see how he'd react so he had to be mad about it. And I know if he wasn't mad about it the other waifufags would have eventually gotten on his case saying he was a cuck who liked NTR or something, so he'd be looking for reasons to be angry on his waifu's behalf and spend his days miserable to prove himself.

I wrote too much lol. >>12229 cont.

I hadn't thought about it like this before but the more mainstream fandom spaces have taken on that same whipping yourself into a fury to show how serious you are about liking something. The same attitude I left husbando communities to escape has become a widespread expectation that younger users are copycatting. People want to claim a connection to fiction so deep that they are the ones preserving the true canon and know best.

The DLsite stuff sounds like it could be an offshoot of fixed positions discourse. I accept this and only this with no exceptions. While it has nothing to do with fixed BL shippers, it's the same Japanese attitude, isn't it? Those are their own flavor of intense.

>>12228
>they specifically only create works where the male characters are exclusively devoted to the heroine…they'd never ever ever add any sexual or romantic interactions between two men
I noticed that women, esp jap/kor/cn women, despise muddling yume and fujo content. I don’t think it’s just a yume vs fujo thing; even fujos are sensitive about who gets shipped with who (the snake/frog/snail chart) and top/bottom positions. I have barely ever seen M/F otome content that also contains M/M unless maybe the author is bisexual.

My theory for why and yumes vehemently oppose M/M content in their stuff is that self shipping and fujoshipping are two fundamentally different modes of escapism. Self shipping works from the first person PoV; the appeal lies in imagining your husbando as if he is a sentient interactive enmity. Fujoshipping works from a third person PoV; the appeal lies in being an omniscient god who can play with characters like Barbie dolls. The former cannot interact with the latter since seeing their husbando coupled with any other entity is an existential threat to their fantasy.

If you engage in scroteshit like eroge or hentai notice how moids happily welcome F/F content in their porn. There are two reasons: 1) it’s an extreme extension of the Madonna-whore complex where the male viewer isn’t threatened by his waifu even interacting with another man and 2) more importantly, moids deep down do not believe in lesbianism. They see lesbianism as something women do for male attention or something that can be “cured” by the right man, so seeing F/F isn’t incompatible with their internal fantasy.

>>12227
Nayrt but I’ve been formulating a yumeshipper chart based on my personal experience, interactions and observations with selfshipping. I’m trying to classify yumes in a 4 quadrant chart with examples based on two axes: if their husbando is ugly vs conventionally attractive, and their level of intensity/devotedness. Among yumes with unpopular/unattractive husbandos, there are those who are genuinely devoted versus those who treat their husbando as an accessory or extension of their identity. Then among yumes of conventionally attractive husbands (eg the Gojos and the Leon Kennedys) you have normies who are content with hetshipping (like how >>12091 and >>12112 describe) versus yumes who straight up treat their husbando as a real partner, complete with elaborate headcanons and OC marriage art and kidfus.

If any other anons want to read my extremely autistic attempt to categorize yumes, I’m glad to share.

>>12229
>wasn't like that in the 00s and 10s as far as I saw

because people didn't have a name for it yet, the moment people discover there is a name for what you're into that's the moment you get group worshippers and congregation/cons.
I'd say we didn't know at one point what yaoi or bl meant either, yumeshipping was essentially het or oc shipping with extra steps.

>Self shipping works from the first person PoV; the appeal lies in imagining your husbando as if he is a sentient interactive enmity. Fujoshipping works from a third person PoV; the appeal lies in being an omniscient god who can play with characters like Barbie dolls.

Nailed it, or it's like trying to have a character creation protag videogame and a normal protag videogame at the same time.

>>12231
>unless maybe the author is bisexual.
Kinda off topic but why is this true? I know some people say fujos pretend to be bisexual to escape cringe accusations, and why that may be true to some degree, I also have the impression that fujos tend to be bisexual way more often than other shippers or fandom women in general. I don't get it, woulding straight women enjoy BL for the exact same reason bi women do? Even in spaces where straight women aren't homophobic, it still feels like this division is true

>>12231
Nailed it, men see lesbianism as something hot and that something that doesn't "ruin" the woman like fucking another man would. Since waifus are all objects to the waifuism, I'm sure they love thinking about two girls kissing and then maybe joining in themselves kek. Doesn't work the same with a female self-insert fantasy involving two men.

Please share your yume analysis. I would love to be analyzed in good faith as a fujo too kek.

>>12229
>For example, on one waifu board, we had a guy who would talk about his waifu verbally and physically abusing him for thinking lewd thoughts about other anime girls or going out to meet with his friends, and this guy had a fucking meltdown over someone uploading NSFW art of his waifu on pixiv every other week. That she would never do that and this was practically a criminal offense against her canon, and his waifu was watching to see how he'd react so he had to be mad about it. And I know if he wasn't mad about it the other waifufags would have eventually gotten on his case saying he was a cuck who liked NTR or something, so he'd be looking for reasons to be angry on his waifu's behalf and spend his days miserable to prove himself.
I don't think this kind of male waifufag behavior is new. I've been seeing this kind of behavior on 4chan and /a/ spinoffs for years. If anything it feels like the male deranged behavior towards waifus kind of leaked over towards yumejoshi culture, the same way other 4chan slang took hold in normalfags. Well at least in the west anyway I feel like JP fujos have also kind of always been a little off with their private accounts and miles long DNI lists

the recent russian yumejoshi drama is looking interesting

https://x.com/poaaaaa_nganga/status/2028170264392204478

>>12237
I support the yume here

>>12237
>>12238
She seems to be pretty talented, I'll give her that. And I've gotten real tired of japanese corporate bootlicking after hearing about how a bunch of JP megaman fans ruined an attempt to document and archive design documents for a cancelled game.

>>12237
I am russian and I genuinely don't understand what is op so mad about

>>12240
nta but I already posted about it here if you're curious >>12221 and here >>12212

tldr; it's all about copyright sperging and Japanese fans not agreeing with making a profit with fanart because if they do that in Japan and get caught by publishing companies they get fined like crazy. So unspoken fandom rules prohibit that. These same publishing companies and famous veteran mangaka protect and give jobs to deranged pedophiles and rapists though, but that's another topic.

>>12234
My guess is that legit bisexual women - women who are sexually attracted to other women actually date and sleep with women irl, not fujos who claim to be lesbian or bi to escape fetishizer allegations - are able to derive pleasure from M/F otome content because M/F content for women often tends to objectify the female self insert. In the normie world, the default mode for heterosexual women is to relate to M/F content (unless they have a fujo awakening) so M/M is automatically out of the question. On the other hand, a major part of the appeal of M/M to women is the lack of female presence, which allows them to explore more fantasies free from the consequences of being female (eg being objectified). In theory, het and yaoi shouldn’t be incompatible since they’re both forms of femgaze entertainment. However, in practice their practitioners are often mutually exclusive since they appeal to two different groups for very different reasons.

The tiny overlap between these two demographics - a woman who enjoys M/M who can also enjoy women being objectified - would probably consist of bisexual fujos.

>>12235
>Please share your yume analysis. I would love to be analyzed in good faith as a fujo too kek
Will get working on it! I’m thinking of four quadrants

The Devoted Autist
>yumes with conventionally unattractive husbandos (esp inhuman characters) who are sincerely attached to them
>more often than not on the spectrum which explains the attraction
>content to quietly exist and create fan work of their husbando

The Ugly Man Lover
>yumes who latch onto unconventional husbandos but lack the pure, sincere devotion of the Devoted Autist
>flaunts unpopular or unconventional husbando as an identity; they must be the one and only authority on this character
>oftentimes has NLOG or pickme-ish qualities like being a gendie/TIF, being an MRA, or caping for repulsive men
>might have low self esteem which is why ugly or unconventional husbandos are deemed non-threatening

The Proxy Self-Inserter
>hetshippers who are actually yumes who treat the female protagonist as a stand-in proxy for self inserting so they can be with their favorite popular character (eg SasuSaku shippers who stan Sakura and treat Sasuke like a prize for her)
>female protagonist must be respectable, agreeable and generic enough for them to project onto
>they also enjoy conventional romance and otome genre works that feature inoffensive female protags (eg Twilight, Dramione fanfic)

The Shameless Self-Selfshipper
>yumes who engage in husbandofagging via an OC character or direct self-insertion to be with their favorite character
>has elaborate headcanons about their OC, husbando, kidfu, etc. might commission art of their self-insert/OC and autocorrection.cancel
>engages in consoomerism to show their devotion to their husbando
>often gets offended by other ship art of their husbando since they see it as a threat to their fantasy

>>12235
No, lesbian art is a prime source of drama that makes you a cuck in waifu circles, or worse, "treating her as a fetish vessel." Letting your waifu have relationships with anyone means you don't love her and are faking etc etc. This is the difference between "waifuism" and the casual use of the word "waifu" to mean any anime girl. Waifuists witch hunt and self police over everything, and when they want to bully another waifuist they just have to find porn of his waifu with another woman, man, or horse, and start spamming. Guy has to act offended in front of everyone or he'll be shamed forever.

>>12236
Nona, that's what I said. I'm describing a user from an 8chan waifu board in the mid 10s, that's a whole decade ago now. If anyone's wondering he wasn't involved in the beach orgy far as I recall, he was considered mentally ill even on there.

>>12242
This is an excellent analysis. Thank you for your thoughts!

>>12238
If she actually did want to be an animator at MAPPA then she's an idiot for not keeping that stuff on a separate account, though, because if you want to work in Japan you have to follow their rules.

>>12242
Good write up, the quadrants work well. I feel like The Devoted Autist is an endangered species. Last of these I remember is Waluigisgirl and that lady on DeviantArt who drew herself with that ugly guy from Treasure Planet(?).
>>12221
>maybe it's more paranoia than autism in that case.
That seems so crazy to worry about given what doujin culture is like over there. To me this looks like a case of jealous yumes looking for an excuse to dogpile this one because she is a good artist, but I don't know anything about jp yume social mores.

>>12234
>>12242
Just like bisexual women are overrepresented amongst fujos, bisexual women also tend to enjoy stuff like femdom and pegging way more often than other female otaku. You almost never see yumed wanting to peg their husbandos and when they do it's almost always because they are bisexual.

>>12244
Glad you enjoyed it!

>>12246
Endangered, but never extinct. As long as autistic girls exist, the Devoted Autist will always persist. Besides stalwarts like DisneyFan01 (treasure planet lady), they still exist like the buff SpongeBob lady or the Squidward lady who frequented r/waifuism

>>12247
I can get femdom but I have never known any normal straight woman, let alone fujo, who gets off to pegging men. Besides terminally porn brain rotted NLOGs it seems to mainly appeal to bi men and troons.

>>12249
I have an autistic sexual fantasy about fingering a man's (clean) ass and have done it before. I like the feeling of power I get from it. I'm bisexual.

>>12242
Fascinating but also not surprising the devoted autist types are better behaved
t. friends with one who happens to be fujo friendly

>>12249
I like pegging men, but only in theory. Just like I'm into men but only in theory… Men IRL give me the ick but there's lots of anime boys I'd like to peg. Coincidentally bisexual as well.

>>12250
>>12257
Alas, pegging or fingering a 3DPD man irl VS the fantasy of doing stuff to an anime boy is a world of difference.

>>12255
In order of fujo friendliness from most to least I’d say Devoted Autist > Ugly Man Lover >> Proxy Self-Inserter >>>>>>> Shameless Self-Shipper
>Devoted Autist has a strong inner world so they don’t feel threatened by fujos
>Ugly Man Lover’s husbando is too obscure/ugly for fujos BUT as a whole they are most likely to show cowish behaviors so watch out
>Proxy Self-Inserters regularly butt heads with fujos (see Naruto ship wars) but if they can into M/M (eg multishippers who have a fave fandom bicycle) then some can peacefully coexist
>Shameless Self-Shippers and fujos are diametrically opposed. They are fundamentally incompatible.