No.7957
>>7946For me personally a nice character design and fun doujin concept can go a long way and I also find it interesting to see how people fill in the blanks with a silent protag. That dragon quest 11 doujin that was shared in /ot/'s gaming thread is a great example. Of course, it's not like that game is very deep to begin with so you don't have to characterise 11-kun as anything but "Virtuous hero who fell in love with one of his male companions."
No.7958
>>7957That was a cute doujin! And yes playing with stuff like video game mechanics is fun, but at the end of the day it's never as interesting as two characters with established personalities. I don't think it's voyeuristic or "cucking" or anything weird like that. People read stories for the plot, I enjoy fanfiction as an extension of canon and to do that I need to already know and love the parties involved.
No.7960
>>7951If anything I’m being nice by shipping guys in otome games since they won’t have to be forever alone if they didn’t win the me the player bowl
No.7967
>>7951This is about LaDS, isn't it? Although I guess it can apply to yumes in general and not just LaDS ones, but I think self inserting has genuinely rotten these people's brains to the point where they think that games are defined by the protagonist's(who they self insert as) gender, rather than literally any other trait. When it comes to LaDS, they believe that the fact that it has a FeMC makes it a game
for women, and that the ones asking for a male MC or shipping the guys are men who want to be represented in the game. Even though it's obvious that anyone who plays LaDS is playing it for the dateable male characters, I've seen people completely unironically say things like
if you want a male MC in LaDS you should instead play a galge, where the dateable options are (usually)… female characters. I thought it was just bait, but I've seen so many similar takes that seem to come from people who fully believe that
games for men are defined by having a male MC and nothing else, and
games for women are defined by having a female MC. Maybe the world has gone crazy.
No.7994
>>7951It doesn't even make sense semantically, being cucked would mean to watch someone you're in a relationship with or have a crush on being fucked by someone else. I'm not in love with the characters I ship, voyeurism would be a more accurate description. Also I swear these people are the ones sperging about fujos on Lolcow's fandom related threads, it's uncanny.
>>7956Kek for real though, they will endlessly chimp out about how much fujos hate women but they themselves see other female characters as direct competition and lose their minds if they have to share their husbando with either another character or another yume.
No.7995
>>7953K-pop is built on preying on lonely and mentally ill people who can imagine the idols as their girlfriends/boyfriends, of course there's an overlap with the self insertion community.
No.7996
>>7967The game has a built in period tracker anon. Pretty sure it's for women. Specifically cis women.
No.8001
>>7994>I'm not in love with the characters I ship, voyeurism would be a more accurate descriptionI think playing with dolls is even more accurate since we are not passively watching characters fuck from a distance but actively writing narratives and controlling ficitional concepts in our head. The lolcow threads confuse me, even if we have a world of eroticized men they still somehow have an issue. Antis act like ryona or dark themes in BL is the same as masturbating to videos of cartel toture. It's like if someone made two Ken dolls kiss and then kill each other, then someone else starts crying and asking how you can be okay with that. Same with the whole cuck debate, is rooting for the main couple in generic romcoms getting cucked?
No.8002
>>8001> is rooting for the main couple in generic romcoms getting cucked?According to their own words, they erase the female lead and project themselves in her place. And then they call other people misogynistic when they just treat female characters like placeholders for their own selves, the real MC of every story ever created kek.
No.8003
>>7996Oh definitely, I'm not arguing that, the yumes can honestly have that game since I don't really like the artstyle much anyway. I just find the general behaviour in the community really ridiculous and extreme at times, it's the best example of how awful (and homophobic) yumes can get.
No.8015
>>8002I've noticed that it's often those who self-insert into the most nagging and unlikeable female characters that then use feminism to guilt-trip everyone into liking them.
For example someone in a fandom I’m in literally asked people to choose between two female characters and claimed that their choice would determine their views on women. That level of unhinged self-insertion is something I just cringe at, like you have to guilt trip people in order to choose someone like you? It's so gross, no wonder these people use fictional characters to get their self esteem from
No.8022
>>8015That's a plague in the Transformer fandom too with Starscream. SS is a great character, but people relating to him are a huge red flag because it's usually women that think being a manipulative, back-stabbing bitch was cool or blame one of their mental illnesses for acting that way and equal Starscream criticism with misogyny because THEY are like him or think they were. It also requires the additional step of headcanoning him as a woman, as trans or at least as someone who is supposed to represent women which is absolutely not the case.
SS is just your classic manipulative, bitchy, evil side-kick. He's supposed to be amusing to watch or hot, not to be literally you.
No.8024
>>8022Local TF fan here who's been plaguing/lurking this board for a few months. And it's so hard not to constantly complain about it. Because it's just so irritating. And worse, it's a fandom constant. Across every media, most of my complaints stem from my favorites, which include Screamer. Linking it to self-inserting makes so much sense, because all fanfiction of him is written like he's got the headspace of a 20 year old emotionally immature college student, not someone who's exclusively happy when hurting and abusing other people.
He's just evil. Outside of Armada, he's one age rating short of being a horror antagonist, and that is specifically why he's one of my favorites. Like Cobra Commander but for some reason, he's regarded as basically a 'she'. a diva, and the target for mech preg/breeding obsession.
No.8025
>>8024Yeah it's a shame because he's a great character with so much potential for cool shit. I love the artists that draw him as unhinged bitch or do something interesting with him (we need a continuity in which he becomes an evil Prime IMO). And yeah it's an issue in every TF fandom no matter which one and regardless of whether it's comics or cartoons.
>Like Cobra Commander but for some reason, he's regarded as basically a 'she'Kek I didn't know that about CC. This feels so random to me I think many fans just call everybody they like a woman or trans. My other fandom is plagued by the same shit and the guy in question is an old conservative dude who is good at fighting and rules over people, he has nothing feminine about him but since he's engaging and fun fans like him and liking someone means they're female and uwu. Sad.
No.8026
>>8025>or do something interesting with him It's a shame TFOne is dead because I think an older SS that has to mentor Megatron for the good of the Decepticons while also having to defer to him as his master would genuinely be interesting.
No.8027
I think self insertion is the biggest reason fandom sucks now, mostly for fujoshis. The het shippers say you're misogynist because you don't self insert on the woman and you're not making content for them. People trooning male characters into women and saying that's better. And of course, the moids who are currently trying to burn down every gacha industry because they need to self insert onto a bland male mc. This means no other males present because it's gay, every waifu is for them, and absolutely no good stories because if any character doesn't kiss their mc's ass, they rage. All media needing to be escapist self insert trash is not only why a lot of canons suck now, but why fandom sucks.
No.8028
>>8026I thought the same. It's a shame that we won't get more of it (mainly for the shitty marketing, even) and that fans will probably memoryhole it because it doesn't match the weak, inexperienced Starscream headcanon.
I was already sad that IDW1 never elaborated on his past as a political figure and senator. It's a cool as shit starting point for an evil dude to be part of an evil government but we only got tidbits.
IDW2 featured a mostly decent government but his role was interesting nonetheless since there he was the corrupt, back-stabbing senator. But most fans didn't read it out of protest, either because they're angry about IDW1's cancellation or IDW1's homo pandering (the boomers and dudebros) so it didn't get the traction it deserved IMO.
Anyway I want SS as a powerful figure.
No.8029
>>8028From the lenses of a self-inserter, SS in any continuity must be flanderized and dependent on a man who wants nothing but to pamper him. And One SS was the opposite to that in every way.
He was confident, less evil and his actions felt nuanced. Like he was aware hiding out in a trash hovel was the only reason he had respect. He had everything, as long as they remained a secret, and D's beatdown went into a direction he couldn't control. The idea of him having to constantly fight for the control he lost in this one scene would have been incredible to see expanded upon- but self-insertion makes him a vehicle for girls who are into being choked/dommed or a nonsense crossover to date their giant jet bf Skyfire. It is insane to me that the episode of G1 that gave him real intelligence, history and a relationship outside of backstabbing someone just became 'tall boyfriend ship' and that was it from thereon.
One of the reasons I can't read Prime fanwork anymore is because that specific SS is the Prime candidate for "omg she's such a diva." Not helped by Frank Welker putting on his best voice ever as megs. Who wouldn't want 15 tonnes of giant jet warlord?
No.8034
>>8022>>8024As someone who was into Transformers as a kid and Starscream was my favourite reading this hurts like a bitch kek, what did they do to him
No.8040
>>8034In official media? Nothing. He only gets more evil with every new version but somehow people just ignore that for geewunner Starscream and Prime exclusively. Doesn't matter what he says, he'll always be Jetfire's boyfriend because Jetfire's a good person, and self inserters don't want to BE bad people. I've noticed this about self inserters with avatars of popular characters who are often forceful to dominant.
They want to be bratty, a mean girl, but with none of the negativity associated with being one so they claim the chatacter's just an abuse victim which excuses their actions.
Picrel just slaughtered about six people and only spared the cat because it attacked someone else that was not him. But "she" cares about her appearance so "she" is obviously just a diva.
Obviously.
No.8042
>>8040Tbf, Skybound's Starscream is a terrible example of the character NOT being an abuse victim because Megatron literally brainwashed him into becoming a murderer, dude was just some scientist until the war came along.
As a Megatron/SS shipper I find Megatron ultimately being backstabbed by the same monster he helped create very compelling, but it's a very clearcut case of a Starcream that got fucked up by Megatron specifically.
No.8043
>>8042I get what you mean, about brainwashing. Starscream, to me, reads as just needing a reason. It's in his character to be cruel, even in Shattered Glass with how he killed Blur. But regardless of how he started, there's always some justification I see made for him, which doesn't always excuse his behavior. It is his character to actively attention seek, covet greed, and push other people into the line of fire.
That specifically is why I like him. And Skybound feels like Screamer with no limits. Before the brainwashing, acting as a civilian, his actions are in line with his portrayal across media. It was an innocent act of trying to be noticed, but that spark was still there.
And, as a SS multishipper, I want to see that in any ship he's in, but it's often some form of recovery. Jetfire/SS is honestly my one TF fandom notp specifically because of the fandom.
No.8047
>>8043Other anon. And yeah Jetfire/SS is one of the ships I categorically ignore since I never see it being done without SS being full ooc. It's the most extreme case of uwufying. Like I don't condemn it or anything, it's just nothing that interest me. I want villains to keep their traits even if they're toned down in a love story.
btw we should discuss this in the TF thread, it's sad how dead it is and I feel like there is a lot to discuss lol
No.8051
I specifically dislike authors self-inserts tbh, which also end up being people’s self-inserts because readers relate to what the author feels. This is very true when it comes to Japanese authors, like one big giveaway is when the main character has a super generic design while everyone else has unique, detailed ones. Of course the author doesn’t want their personal avatar to have a standout design because it’d be harder to relate to right? It's annoying because I’m here to read a story not to watch the author’s projection wacky adventures.
No.8052
>>8051This is my main gripe with manga. Worst of all is that you can tell by the narrative by how the MC is treated by the plot and the side characters compared to everybody else. They're the only ones allowed to be savior and do the cool shit, everybody who is good loves them, everybody who is evil respects them because MC is just so fucking awesome (and I usually dislike them).
I either drop such series or stick to them because I am unlucky enough to love some of the side characters and have to bear with the endless shilling for as long as the series is running because the insecure author cannot share empathy or success with other characters, especially not other characters of the same gender as them.
It's the no. 1 reason for why most media and especially most manga are shit IMO.
No.9246
I know this has been discussed to death, but do some people just not understand that you can enjoy stories without self-inserting? It's such a bizarre mindset, and I don't think it was always this prevalent. I remember a time back when people would make fun of other people's OCs if they were blatant self-inserts. What changed? Have these people never read a book where you're not supposed to sympathize with or identify with the protagonist? Or a story that's not intended to be wish fulfillment? I feel like there has to be some sort of disconnect happening.
No.9247
>>9246I don't get it either. I don't want characters to be like me. I want to see characters that have interesting backstories or motivations or powers. I want to see characters with interesting dynamics and relationships together.
I (like many other female nerdy types) am very shy irl. I don't want to see a bland passive shy protagonist in every story. I am ultimately not that interesting of a person. I can't relate to generic sun-themed genki shounen protagonists, let alone morally gray characters with complex inner struggles and backstories and powers going on a quest in a fantasy world.
>Have these people never read a book where you're not supposed to sympathize with or identify with the protagonist? Or a story that's not intended to be wish fulfillment?I've also wondered if they've ever read books like I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings or Crime and Punishment or Anna Karenina or The Age of Innocence or The Count of Monte Cristo or literally any classical novel? There's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying self-inserting, but I can't understand why a self-insert is expected now in some circles or why calling fujoshis cucks over FICTIONAL CHARACTERS is common.
No.9248
>>9246covid and tiktok killed media literacy and pushed egocentrism to the forefront for how people interact with the world at large now
No.9250
>>9246Learning how much "self insertion" has expanded in fandom space over the last ~5 years continues to shock me, especially in media that does not have a build-a-bitch MC (like in XIV, which I posted about here months ago). My cope is that I don't consider the talents of the women who create it to be a "loss" for fujoshi in the way I do other objectively talented artists/writers who create things not to my taste (NOTPs, etc). To their credit they seem to stick to their own corner on Ao3 and I don't use Twitter enough to have to see their shit takes about fujos unless they are posted here specifically (which is fine, I like to get news from the front lines here haha).
Lately I think the blame for the latest wave of it falls on smutty romantasy books taking off as a genre because they straddle the line between classic bodice rippers for normie women AND fanfic girlies, so they bring the genre expectations of the former (You–yes, you!–will be getting dick from the man in this book) into the spaces of the latter (You–yes, you!–will be getting dick from Alhaitham Genshin Impact).
No.9251
>>9247>if they've ever read books….or literally any classical novel? The average fujo or fanfic reader/maker doesn't read books, they just read other people's fanfics and that's how every fanfic at some point starts looking the same because people don't bother learning their prose from literature
No.9253
>>9251>The average fujo or fanfic reader/maker doesn't read booksI mean, someone who writes and reads ff as a hobby is very likely to also read as a hobby. Even if it's casual lit or booktok hits. Only 54% of Americans read a single book in 2023. Most of the population is illiterate to some degree. You are well above the average American if you read ff for fun.
https://today.yougov.com/entertainment/articles/48239-54-percent-of-americans-read-a-book-this-year No.9254
>>9253>You are well above the average American if you read ff for funI doubt it. Most fics are light reads comparable to romance slop pushed by booktok, it doesn’t challenge you in any way. No offence but fics are more like self-indulgent junk food.
No.9256
>>9252>John GreenPlease tell me you don't actually read his drivel.
>>9254Agree, though that's largely because there's a lower barrier to entry and so much is written by young people. There's also novel length works that I would call comparable to serious lit. If you are only reading fanfiction you're doing yourself a disservice if only because you're missing out on classics novel ships.
No.9257
>>9254But also consider that the average american is functionally illiterate and won't even see a movie if they have to read subtitles.
No.9258
>>9247>or literally any classical novelKek these people would read Lolita and think they were supposed to project onto Humbert Humbert.
>Crime and PunishmentBased Crime and Punishment nona…>>9251>The average fujo or fanfic reader/maker doesn't read booksNTA but I don't fully agree with this. I think a decent number of fujos do read books, and I think a lot of women are fujos ABOUT classic literature. Now, I think the population as a whole doesn't read very much, but I don't believe that's unique to fujos.
>every fanfic at some point starts looking the same because people don't bother learning their prose from literatureI agree with this, and I believe it's started to bleed into published books, as well. Some published authors who started off as fanfic writers (Cassandra Clare is the big one I'm thinking of right now) never quite shake that fanfiction-y feeling from their prose.
No.9260
>>9256>Please tell me you don't actually read his drivel.I didn't (even when he was popular I never bothered), the meme just had a lot of books I actually like kek.
No.9261
>>9251I agree that fanfics do kinda blur together if the author doesn't start writing with a goal or outline in mind. If you read enough of them it becomes easy to tell who is doing this and who is doing trope paint-by-numbers for the dopamine hit of easy engagement. All of the objectively solid fanfic I've read shares the basic scaffolding of published literature.
>>9258>fanfiction-y feeling from their prose.I've heard this referred to as "Ao3 house style".
No.9418
Genuine question: where would you draw the line when it comes to self-insertion? I think the ability to lose oneself in a ship is what defines fujos, but many fujos aren't all about that. What i mean is we can interchangeably see the ship from the seme or uke's perspective. All the while still enjoying the ship for what it is and be an exterior onlooker. Or, god forbid, yumefag and enjoy a character in a ship we find appealing. I just don't get why it has to be a race to the purest fujo enjoyment, because it isn't that delineated for many fujos. I myself can't say for sure what counts as self-insertion and whats counts as moving through a ship, if that makes sense. I'm not thinking of blatant self-inserters like cuntboy TiFs or lost yumes with a superiority complex, just to be clear.
No.9419
>>9418Maybe not the answer you were looking for but this reminds me of something that I thought of before. I think that there can be a fujo-yume overlap if you get into a ship not specifically because of a certain character dynamic but because you have strong feelings for a male character and you want to imagine him being happy with another man instead of yourself because self-shipping just isn't appealing. I had that feeling while playing FFXIV where my player character isn't a self-insert but I made him the qualities I like most in an uke for a male NPC I was obsessing over.
No.9421
>>9418I think self-insertion is basically just about making your own OC, or even modifying an existing character so that their physical aspect or personality reflects you more than it does itself.
I think it can also include that when you are reading, watching, or fantasizing about rom/sexual scenes that you are imagining as if the actions are being done to you as if you were one of the characters.
Personally I realized I don't actually self-insert. What I will do sometimes though is relate or identify with a character. But any sexual component will be enjoyable as a spectator - the actions are done to each other but never imagine that they are being done to me.
To actually answer your question, I don't think many people actually police the level that you can self-insert as as this is all personal.
I think the issues stem from people thinking that a fujo is some catch-all term for anyone that enjoys a ship; whether its OC/reader, gay, hetero, or lesbian, or that we self-insert because [insert your existential complaint here].
Also like the poster above said, self-inserters that don't know they are doing it may try to pass off their works as BL or whatever so it gets harder to wade through content while evading cuntboy drawing and stuff.
No.9422
>>9420>if you aren't actually shipping characters and your sense of enjoyment comes purely from projecting I don't consider you a fujo I consider you a broader fangirlThis is a good summary of my feelings. It's very rare for me to have a favorite character that isn't my favorite BECAUSE they're one half of the OTP for that piece of media.
>>9419XIV is so weird because I don't feel strongly about WoL ships but WoL as a love interest is a narratively compelling argument for so many NPCs that I do not like a lot of NPC/NPC ships because of this.
I feel like a bad fujo because I can't stand Hades/Hythlo, but the idea of Hades having been in love with the WoL the whole time makes ShB so much better. No.9427
>>9422>>9422>XIV is so weird because I don't feel strongly about WoL ships but WoL as a love interest is a narratively compelling argument for so many NPCs that I do not like a lot of NPC/NPC ships because of thisI haven't played FF XVI but I feel this way about a lot of NPC/Protag ships because I like the dynamic of chosen hero falling in love with a randy. Or there being a tragic element of Hero/Party Member.
No.9428
>>9418>where would you draw the line when it comes to self-insertion? For me, it's when it becomes obvious someone doesn't care for one half of the ship at all. In fan content this becomes clear when you can tell an author is projecting onto one of the characters, often making them ooc in the process. There are also certain genres of posts I see online that annoy me, like when people say
omg I don't know if i want to be the uke or the seme here!!, basically outright inserting themselves into a BL ship.
No.9430
>>9428Do you think it's possible to "only care about half the ship" but also still enjoy it purely as an onlooker? For instance the Warrior of Light ships above where only the NPC matters, Persona ships with MC feel like this to me as well, I assume most people don't care about Minato as a person but they might still like him with Mochizuki for the perceived dynamic.
No.9433
>>9418>where would you draw the line when it comes to self-insertion?I'm a huge fan of both characters individually when it comes to ships I'm really into, especially the uke. When I see Aoba for example, I think that he's adorable and cute and want to give him a hug like a stuffed animal. But I don't want to imagine dating him. I don't want to imagine actually touching with him or interacting with him or existing in his world. He belongs with another man
Clear. He's not meant for me. There are many characters like that where I think they would be a good boyfriend for someone and get giddy but ship them with another character.
I love using fiction as escapism and my life is far from perfect, but I don't actually want to imagine permanently living with a husbando or leaving my loved ones either.
No.9437
>>9433>that spoilerBeyond based.