No.7218
>>7155Are people finally waking up? Even though there's no need for a 'study' because it's obvious why if you think about it for 2 seconds lol.
>"cute" and tranny culture (it's the same to me) is alien to me>A lot of women like pink and lolitaIt really depends on where you're from. Kawaii culture originates from Japan and feminine cute fashion is the norm there, but parts of it, particularly lolita, were inspired by western vintage feminine fashions. But now, most women wear jeans and T-shirts so if you dress in a fluffy dress you aren't in the norm and may be picked on. When I was growing up in the 00's, girly fashion was a big thing in American media, but if you tried to dress like that you'd get picked on. After becoming a weeb my style did a 180 and I ditched all my jeans for skirts - but I remember one day trying a ribbon in my hair and got picked on for it, so I took it off. Now, I see hair ribbons absolutely everywhere in the shops and people actually wearing them. Trends change. Female (and male) weebs are also the most likely group to be into kawaii fashion by benefit of being weebs.
But re: trans obsession with femininity, I see more dressing like hookers. MtFs into lolita are usually sissies who will wear rancid fetish dresses but sometimes do squeeze themselves into actual brand. You rarely see them into fashions with low sex/fetish appeal.
No.7219
>>7216Women wearing super feminine and frilly/dolly stuff in public is uncommon unless you're at cons but generally pink and cute stuff (especially mascots) isn't, at least not where I live. "Sanrio girl" is even a term used by normies I know. I'm Asian American and live in a primarily Asian area though, so maybe being into this kind of cute youthful stuff is more normal.
No.7220
>>7164lol gay men can be into anime, they just have normie taste in media, but the gay men i know don't care about yaoi, they think it's just anime porn that they don't really care for, but they won't judge anyone for it, normies think being into anything beyond shounen slop is like being a perverse degenerate, so it really doesn't matter if your into yume, yaoi or yuri, you're still a loser in their eyes
No.7221
>>7219Even here in the USA south you’ll see Hello Kitty Girls. Heck, Walmart sells Sanrio products now. It’s not uncommon to see high-school and college-aged girls and women wearing hello kitty products. I find that tifs are more likely to wear alt fashion at my local university.
No.7222
>>7220Back in the old days the prejudice about the degenerated anime fan always wondered me but nowadays I even understand why it exist and I hate that I do. In the 90s and 00s I associated anime with exciting action stories, gritty sci-fi and shoujo drama. Now the majority is legit coomer shit. I am not even saying that good anime aren't made anymore (they exist and every season has at least decent good shows IMO) but it's true that the variety dropped dramatically if you compare an anime season of 2007 and 2011 with anything now.
I also feel like the targets of fanservice and aggressive sexualisation are getting younger too. The Sailor Moon girls look way more mature to me than the average anime girl from modern series, but maybe it's just me. Not even starting with the loli and "totally not"-loli sexualisation. I hate it because anime have so much good to offer but casuals will ignore it because they assume that everything that isn't mainstream was coomer shit and I cannot even blame them. But I am sad for the good series that get overlooked for this.
No.7223
>>7218I think the anime culture is just way bigger in the US than most other western countries. The US is generally more juvenile and way more extroverted than some other places. I talk to a few people from there and they're seeing fans walking around with anime stuff everywhere or anime stickers on their cars (in most other countries people don't even put stickers on cars in the first place). One said that randos in the streets or coworkers recognized merch of stuff like Ousama Ranking, which baffled me.
I maybe see someone wearing anime merch once every 3-4 months and it's basically always a Turkish or Ethiopian male zoomer with DBZ or Naruto shirt. My country lacks young people though and I don't hang around with zoomers so maybe I would encounter more otaku if I did.
No.7226
>>7223>I think the anime culture is just way bigger in the US than most other western countries.Are you insane? Anime and manga have been mainstream in many European countries for decades, we had JJBA, Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball in France and Italy way before the US and that's only one small example among many.
No.7227
>>7226Yeah Italy and France are both famous for having a huge, dedicated fanbase for anime and manga since the 80's, IIRC manga surpassed western comic sales in these countries ages before it did in the US. They've even been creating their own western manga and anime-inspired shows for a very long time, way before American shows like ATLA.
No.7228
>>7224The catchphrase is weird. I would have expected that "yaoi" or "fujos" rule the world not girls, that woman isn't even a girl she's an adult. But the photo is very funny. I wonder if the others on the photo noticed it.
>>7226I know, I bought manga since 1999. But I am talking about visibility. Having media is something different from walking around like a nerdy autist. German fans don't really show that they are anime fans. Manga sales were always good but it's different from wearing anime shirts, keychains and plastering anime stickers on the backpack you wear at work.
Books are big here too and in most other countries, but you don't see people walking around with Harry Potter merch either. At least not here. Fandoms are generally more private whereas US people show everything they like to everybody.
No.7229
>>7228>Manga sales were always good but it's different from wearing anime shirts, keychains and plastering anime stickers on the backpack you wear at work. France is exactly that but worse though. People shamelessly read manga or watch anime when commuting or during lunch break, they wear subtle or obvious merchs depending on their styles, you have random 50s old women telling you Ryo Saeba is their husbando since the 90s in the workplace if they see you have a keychain from an anime, etc. The only reason why it's more the case now than before in France is because these things are more accessible in physical or online stores. By the way when I was crossing Spain every summer as a kid to see relatives somewhere else I was always begging my parents to buy me random Sailor Moon merchs we saw in stores or markets and they always told me it was only bootleg. No clue if there are Spanish anons who can confirm or not whether Spain was also full of weaboos since the 80s or 90s.
>Books are big here too and in most other countries, but you don't see people walking around with Harry Potter merch eitherI do though, usually people are subtle with it, but sometimes they'll wear an official scarfs or a handbag they bought in Primark. It's mostly younger people who wear the most obnoxious merchs though.
No.7232
>>7226italian nona here, anime was very popular in italy in the 90s and very early 2000s, but that goes for very limited, often children oriented titles.
anime that had even slightly more mature themes were heavily rebranded through censorship and marketing ops to make them appear more child-friendly.
nowadays, anime in italy is well-known, but compared to the us and many other euro countries, it is still regarded as a niche interest. the occasional normie will watch an anime series if it becomes extremely popular and if it has potential with a western audience (like AoT), but will absolutely not go beyond that.
anime in italy isn't an entirely normalized interest yet, and this contributes to it not being as widespread as it is in the us by any means. italian youth is mainly made up of people who have a very distinct idea of what is "cool" and watching anime isn't seen as cool.
No.7234
>>7229>random 50s old women telling you Ryo Saeba is their husbando since the 90sKekkk my near-retired old boss gushed about mecha anime to me the second he smelled my interest in manga, i love that weebshit is inter-generational here. Re: Yaoi i realized recently we had an actual BL prepublication magazine in the 2000s (Be x Boy) but it wasn't available outside of bookshops. Bummer
No.7235
>>7228>Fandoms are generally more private whereas US people show everything they like to everybody.A factor to consider is that the US is so big if you want any chance at IRL dork friends you have to fly your flag. If a German weeb befriends another German weeb online, they are like a day trip away from each other max.
No.7236
>>7232Another italian nona! The popularity of anime as a medium has always been a bit of a weird topic imo. Overall I'd say 70's and 80's anime is extremely wellknown and iconic here to the point everyone has seen at least a few. Normies don't really consider them anime, everyone calls them cartoons, but even my parents who call every 2d character pikachu have seen Rose of Versailles and Goldrake, even the prime minister Giorgia Meloni has openly talked about anime like Captain Harlock. But again, they're considered "classic cartoons", not really anime.
Nowadays I do see more people getting into anime, but kinda superficially? Though I guess you can make that argument for most countries since watching (certain types of) anime is becoming more common.
No.7237
>>7226I agree with
>>7236 the series that are popular here are usually super mainstream or related to very small children and normies really don't consider them anime, the really "japanese" series are unheard of
No.7267
>>7228The catch phrase is from a song
No.7268
>>7229To be honest I also read manga in the subways. This is different than merch for me. Personally I am not the guy that identifies with anything and I don't like labels so I am dressed very neutral and don't wear accessories or anything (they have no practical use anyway). Wearing anime merch is a statement IMO or at least an identity thing. I watch and read a lot of anime/manga and casually even buy figures and doujinshi but never identified as nerd so maybe it's that.
>>7232Yeah I became fan of anime because of Italy. I was often there as kid since I'm half-Italian and understand Italian so I watched tv there and they were airing a lot of cool shit Germany didn't about like Slayers, Queen Millennia, Lupin, Saint Seiya etc. Italy's taste is generally much better AFAIK they also love horror, giallos and shit like Dorohedoro sells very well there if I am informed right while it barely sells here. Manga in general are selling well and we get tons of series but it's the same few series and genres that make 95%+ of the money, namely the big name shounen and romcoms. We get endless new releases of yaoi since the early 00s so I assume they'll sell well too, but maybe the licenses aren't expensive either since most of these are short series.
No.7269
>>7230I genuinely don't know if this is satire or real because I scrolled the second link and saw a post with 5000 notes agreeing with forced transition.
No.7304
I don't watch Kuroshitsu..ji? you know what I mean. But I just saw an online person I know say he was surprised that this show had a "transwoman". He apparently means the red haired guy. The explanation is
> I mean in the dub this person uses female pronouns
Unless this is true (cannot confirm, since I don't watch it) dubs might be largely to blame for the increase of transwashing. I don't watch dubs EITHER so I cannot tell how common this is. Remember that English dubs aren't the only ones out there. In this case it's the Spanish dubs. I already noticed before that the ESP and Brzilian dubs seem to be pretty generous with their interpretations. My favorite man was recently openly called gay and said to flirt with the other half of my ship while it was ambivalent in the original.
No.7306
>>7304>But I just saw an online person I know say he was surprised that this show had a "transwoman". He apparently means the red haired guy. From what I could tell, Grell talks in a feminine way in the japanese version as well and it's the other characters that refer to him as a male. It's just that this character archetype, the okama, is hard to convey to a western audience. I'm not japanese so take my explanation with a grain of salt but it seems like okama are some form of feminine gay guy and/or drag queen and I've seen the term translated as 'queer' before but also just as 'drag queen'. Other example characters are Leeron from Gurren lagann and Nathan/Fire emblem from Tiger&Bunny.
No.7307
>>7306Language barriers are a real problem with gender stuff. Lots of languages even gender the adjectives so it's impossible to stay gender neutral and then again you can use male language for yourself as a woman (see "boku" in Japanese) without implying that you are trans. I do it myself in my own language, partly because feminine forms are more specific and longer and using male forms is unironically more neutral. Nobody would assume I was trans because of that but how do you convey this into English? No idea.
Usually they just skip that altogether and you have to have basic Japanese skills to realise that a woman refers to herself as boku or a man as atakushi. The first is generally kind of common, but for the latter I wouldn't equal it with trans.
On the other hand I have to ask myself what kind of speech a male character would use to show that he's trans if he actually was? Probably the same pronouns.
This is the problem. Japanese is more ambiguous about this. Drags also refer to themselves as women but aren't necessarily trans.
No.7333
>>7306Grell's way of talking is literally the Japanese version of effeminate gay "yaass sis go slay queen bring the tea" dialect because he's a literal okama, not a trans woman.
>>7307All the talk about pronouns in Japan comes from an extremely western point of view in general because all they imply are the speaker's manners/temperament and the hierarchical context rather than gender identity, like no woman who refers to herself as "boku" amidst friends will do so when addressing a higher up at work just like no man will refer to himself as "ore" in the same situation. No grown woman will refer to herself as "atashi" because it's literal cutesy baby talk. Gendered pronouns don't really exist in Asian languages because you're supposed to know the person you're talking about, kare and kanojo are often claimed to be the "he" and "she" in Japanese but nobody really uses them because it's the equivalent of xir/ximself i.e. awkward newspeak that sounds unnatural to native speakers.
No.7335
>>7333Isn't atashi more just excessively feminine and somewhat old fashioned? I feel like you either see it on young girls or old ladies with little inbetween. It was more common in the past.
Can you elaborate on kare and kanojo being newspeak? I see them used often enough. They have their use but just not as often, like for example in narrative writing.
No.7336
>>7306>the okama, is hard to convey to a western audience.It's because it's an archetype that encompasses effeminate gay men, drag queens and HSTSs all at the same time. This didn't really use to be an issue in the past because MtFs were already seen as connected to effeminate gay men and they fell under the umbrella of male homosexuality, but now they're 100% real women so fandom gendies don't really know what to make of them. One thing that's kinda weird that I see with okama characters recently is the obsession with making them brave and stunning transbians, instead of keeping their attraction to men. Frankly, I wouldn't even particularly care if fandom gendies she/her-ed okama characters if they didn't insist on making an archetype that, even using the trans interpretation, is associated with male homosexuality into AGPs. I see it all the time in Enstars fandom with Arashi who is canonically attracted to men but the fans all pretend he's a "transbian" who's into the female MC. I'm convinced fandom gendies find actual homosexuality gross at this point, even when they're given an archetype they could genuinely use to play with their tranny headcanons, they make it as aggressively heterosexual as possible.
No.7337
>>7336The okama to transbian headcanon phenomenon is amusing because most of the time in practice, making a character the okama trope is basically gay-coding. Not the delusional shit like "zomg this character has this flag's color scheme" but the creator's way of saying this character is a full blown fag. It's the one time fandombrained teens genuinely get something that can be considered queer-coding which they seem to love so much, but reject it in this case anyway. The Arashi lesbian shit always makes me laugh because outside of yume-esque lines, all he talks about is men.
No.7338
>>7336It's technically the same IMO. It's just gender-roles.
The difference is how transness is handled in the west. An okama or any other man that refers to himself as woman is aware of his biological sex and won't force others to refer to him as woman. He might say "A lady like me" or something, but doesn't react if you refer to him as man because he knows he is one.
That aside it's situational, as you said. Anime characters are weirder. So an okama might even refer to himself as lady in a job interview, but that's because they're anime characters.
Transness is basically the same, a person that LARPs or feels like the opposite gender and/or enjoys referring themselves as such. The difference is that they try to deny their (original) gender and force others to use their favorite pronouns on them. This is the central problem with trans IMO. For many you cannot even tell they're trans because they don't look or act like it, so you can't know their pronouns or will feel stupid using them.
So I think that while trans and certain subtypes of okama and drags are pretty much the same the conflict arises from the misunderstanding of the social context they are embedded in. Because nobody else from their respective series is usually referring to them as women. It's more of a roleplay. I even enjoy it, I sometimes like okama. But it lacks the political aspect and seriousness of western transness.
No.8010
>>7325>one sub translates "hito" as "lady">the other translates "hito" as "young man"Wow, even TRANlators can't into the English language.
>>7304The funny thing is that they picked Jun Fukuyama for the role - the epitome of a manly voice at the time. Grell doesn't even pretend to sound like a woman. He should be speaking with the gay lisp in the dub.
No.8055
>>8054This is literally transwashing in a nutshell.
It's self-validation through gay shipping, just the need to see "positive transmasc rep" through a pussyfied male. Completely incapable of not self-inserting
No.8056
>>8054I hate troons so fucking much
No.8058
>>8057Imagine if I showed these people shota porn and I was like "Actually these characters are 30 years old so it's porn of adults." It's basically the same logic as pretending straight sex is gay because of pronouns.
No.8059
>>8058These people don't abide by logic I'm afraid, they abide by their retarded gender religion and religion isn't supposed to be questioned
No.8060
>>8058Reminds me (which I'm sure it was mentioned before), there's this strange trend of also drawing / writing shota with vaginas as well. It's not tagged or warned about whatsoever and you just have to accept it. In fact, nowadays every 7 out of 10 shota-related fanfic or art has the shota with a pussy. Good luck if it's somehow also not an abuse-projection fic also.
No.8061
>>8054Totally offtopic but I fucking love collecting people's reasons to hate Mel that are nothing to do with male writers fucking up her story arc. I saw an artist who decided to make Vi black because she needed more black lead characters in fiction, but didn't even consider drawing Mel or bending over backwards to find her a fxf ship to replace Jayce. Yes the artist was trans. No they didn't notice the believably trans cat person character.
No.8062
>>8061If social media didn’t talk about the character, no wonder they didn’t draw them. Half of the people involved in fandom haven’t seen the entirety of the show. This is also why fics and fan art tend to reference a lot of fandom memes, because that’s their only exposure to the original work.
No.8063
>>8061I didn't hate Mel but I liked her mom so much more. Not in the Arcane fandom but I kek over how I don't see Ekko or Heimeidenger or the other characters, just fucking JAYVIK and Jynx and the yuri discourse around caitvi. Sky doesn't exist in fandom either aside from jayvik antis insisting she's Viktor's lover kek
No.8131
One big reason out of the many as to why I can't get into transbending is not just because of the aesthetics or shit art but because even if I wanted to take it seriously in "earnest", it just feels so oddly sexist? despite trying to be "woke".
Like, what defines a character being "trans" exactly (when they're canonically not)?
What makes this male character more transmasc leaning than transfem? or viceversa? Why do all the pussyboys all so HAPPEN to always be the bottom, effeminate-looking guys, basically turned into girls-turned-man?
Also, despite so many ayydens being supposedly "dysphoric" over being women or being reminded of 'woman-only' things, they sure don't mind making impregnation jokes or making their designated trans character pregnant.
It has always bothered me, "this character is transfem" only because they either look too girly or 'behave' girly, but wouldn't it be more natural to simply think of them as men that just act out of the norm of 3DPD men? If a fictional man likes girly hobbies or looks effeminate and you call him a woman, isn't this reinforcing sexist stereotypes?
The same for "this character is transmasc" as if it can't be possible that a natural born male character doesn't somehow acts "like a man", they must have been born a woman or something and therefore if that character is weak is because they're essentially women. Isn't that odd?
No.8132
>>8131If the person doing the bending isn't trans, it's usually because they're a hetfag that can't enjoy porn unless it's PiV. If they're trans, then it's just projection of their genderfeelz onto their fave. There's no rhyme or reason to which characters get picked but there are trends.
>Canon gender issues: Unavoidable>Angst: especially if it's something easy to project onto like shitty parents, even when it comes off as unbelievable that abusive parents would also be using their kid's new name and pronouns.>Any sort of identity related plot whether it's something as simple as the character having more than one name or being insecure in themselves, especially if family expectations.>Pretty/feminine appearance: if a guy crossdresses he's done for, but long hair, being short, having eyelashes or weirdly round hips for a guy will easily do it. When people project their genderfeelz onto these characters it's just a crypto way of saying 'he looks like he could be a woman, or close enough if you squint', which yeah, is just crypto sexism. It's just reinventing the wheel of 'this guy is shorter and prettier and has a rounder butt so he has to be an uke'. No.8300
>did the math
>40% of fics for one of my favorite ships has gendie shit or hetified the ship
And that’s not including the untagged ones that I’ve come across. There’s a little less than 1000 fics of them. That’s almost 400 fics of gendie/het shit. The real nail in the coffin was coming across a new fic that had a super interesting premise but one of the guys was straight up just turned into a woman. It sucks because a lot of the gendie ones have interesting premises but one of them has a pussy. Not that there aren’t interesting ones without gendie shit, but a lot of the non-gendie ones tend to be pwp oneshots. And I remember reading one that was still updating and the author was like “how do yall feel if I turn uke-kun into a tif?” Thankfully everyone in the comments were not for it and the author complied to keep the ship gay. But dear god did my heart drop when I saw that. I’m pretty sure that author is still writing for them but it’s all gendie stuff now.
No.8302
>>8300I know the feeling. Last time I checked, het shit made up more than a 1/3 of explicit fics for my otp. A little less brutal than 40%, but not that far off. Fanart is cooked completely, I'm starting to think being an artist in the west comes with some sort of mental illness
> And I remember reading one that was still updating and the author was like “how do yall feel if I turn uke-kun into a tif?”Holy shit, I had the same thing happen to me??? Except that most of the comments supported it!!! The author decided to post two versions to appeal to everyone, but I still hated it. Is this the future of yaoi shipping? With every gay sex scenario comes a straight reimagining of that scenario? The absolute state of it all. You're not alone in your frustration, sister. I hope every gendie in your fandom gets a violent diarrhea.
No.8304
>>8300The feeling I get is that 15 years ago, the people writing this stuff would not be writing BL in the first place.
No.8306
>>8302Weirdly I rarely if ever come across explicit fanart of them so I haven’t had issues it, but I’ve seen other gay ships that have an excess amount of piv fanart.
>Is this the future of yaoi shipping? With every gay sex scenario comes a straight reimagining of that scenario?I sure as hell hope not. I’m praying this era of hetification is just a blip on the timeline and in another decade it’ll be considered cringe by the masses.
>I hope every gendie in your fandom gets a violent diarrhealol that’s a lot of gendies. It’s a fandom with some of the highest rates of gendies. I’ve unironically never met a fan of it that wasn’t some flavor of gendie.
>>8304They 100% would’ve been shipping both halves with one of the girls or even an oc. They probably would’ve also made anti-fujo stamps on deviantart specifically for this ship because it would go against their straight one. I legitimately feel like the tifs that are currently hetifying gay ships evolved from past anti-fujos.
No.8308
>>8302>The author decided to post two versions to appeal to everyone, but I still hated it.I think I know the exact fic you are talking about. The sex was really bad anyway so no great loss, but still…
>Is this the future of yaoi shipping? With every gay sex scenario comes a straight reimagining of that scenario?Gun to my head, I'd prefer at least having an option as opposed to being served nothing but straight sex masquerading as gay sex. But I agree it's a very sad state of affairs. It'd be less concerning if it was a small minority, but when it becomes a sizeable percentage of a fandom… The last fandom I was openly involved in on social media was nearly 10 years ago, and I had to quit cold turkey because the trans stuff was becoming too prevalent for me. To hear that it's apparently only gotten worse is depressing as hell.
No.8310
>>8132>then it's just projection of their genderfeelz onto their fave. One of the most egregious examples of this I’ve seen recently is a fanfic author writing the uke as trans but still having the clit be referred to as a dick. The cope is on a whole new level, it’s honestly pathetic to see. The author had some good stuff previously but suddenly started flooding the ship tag with this shit, it’s a shame.