No.2521[Last 50 Posts]
Discuss the current state of modern fandoms with the anti/pro discourse.
>What is pro/anti discourse? Pro and anti refers to two stands in current fandom culture of what is acceptable or not to show in fiction. Anti is someone who is against anything that can be considered problematic (incest, age gaps, abuse,etc) and pro is someone who is in favour of anything problematic. But the labels can usually be something bigger, like discourse with headcanons, whitewashing, etc etc… The problematic things are just the more common ones.
>Where do these discourses usually take place?Usually on places like Twitter, Tumblr and Ao3, but they can also be seen in other places like Discord servers, TikTok and so on.
>Are there any reads about this?Here's a few, feel free to post more that you find!
https://note.com/orangiah/n/n437e262ce2ce (Japanese artist explaining the whole anti/pro thing)
https://www.themarysue.com/fandom-has-a-purity-culture-problem/ (general article talking of purity culture in fandom spaces)
https://www.cbr.com/cartoon-fandom-has-a-puritanism-problem/ (article about puritanism as well as a debunk in another article saying children's media has a porn problem)
Last thread
https://archive.is/9WPtF No.2522
God I hate that 'proship' has become a noun now, and that the meaning has changed. Way to twist the original meaning like that.
No.2524
>>2521>>2522I'm pretty certain proship still means ship and let ship.
No.2525
>>2524That was the original meaning of proshipper but now antis use 'proship' as a smush that means 'problematic ship' so now you get antis calling ships themselves 'proships' or saying 'proship DNI'
No.2529
>>2527>it's almost only women who read shitty ABO fanfics or like art of cute guys fucking who get harassed and not hardcore lolicons.this is why the fiction vs reality debate is such a minefield. like, i really don’t care if some woman is writing out age gap fantasies or drawing aggressive dubcon of her husbando. hell, i’ve written worse. but i hate using terms that can give a free pass to men jacking off to anime toddlers. we need a new lexicon, especially with “proship” being bastardized.
No.2530
>>2529Proship has always meant that individuals can have their own tastes and standards in media, just that they wouldn't attack people for their ships. If some dude is jacking it to toddlercon POV/mob porn then it's not even a ship and therefore "proship" shouldn't even come into it.
Most of the proship folks I know disapprove of OOC ships that stretch or remove the defining traits of characters, and generally steer clear of porn of underage bodies (aggressive 17-year-olds or an alien who looks like a grown man at 10-years-old however,).
For example one of the fandoms I'm in has some yumejo who hijack the MC and ship him with his teachers as a blatant self insert. They make the MC act like a delicate little girl and rewrite how his guardians treat him to force him into a wedding dress. It's unexpected and there's an entire sea of canon inspired teacherxteacher BDSM porn (both het and homo) going on that these women are ignoring to turn everything into OCs. So we dislike their content, but we're not going to send them messages calling them a freak or make a Deviantart club about taking sides in a war. And on the surface the disapproval does sound like "how dare you ship teacher and student" but we've all shared around the art of the yumejo who just made her own student OC to sexually assault the teacher with. Those were fun because the teacher was in-character and at her mercy, as he should be. The hijacking yumejo can go sit in their corner enjoying their fantasies and we'll sit in ours and jokingly claim near-canon supremacy where only our compatriots can hear us. Nobody has to actually start shit because that would have no reward or benefit.
Proship will continue to mean what we want it to mean so long as enough people keep using it the way it ought to be. The internet is vast and there will always exist different interpretations of words and canons, but that doesn't mean we have to stop doing us. Morally I believe we have a right to use proship to mean non-hostility if it not only doesn't hurt people, but encourages others to stop being unthinking bastards.
People who use these terms in profiles are kind of looking for a fight though, can't deny that's a redflag for me.
No.2531
I think everyone should be free to enjoy what they like in their fantasy media - lolicons, incest shippers, whatever. Just don't be a massive sperg and start thinking that stuff is okay in real life or even to talk about in mixed company. Really, live and let live.
No.2532
>>2521I hate how preachy and moralistic antis are but holy fuck I hate the people who call themselves shotatorturer or something and literally cannot stop talking about porn 24/7 and shove every fetish existing and non-existing known to man and don't even actually care about characters, they just get off to any extreme shit out there both for "fun" and "because it pisses someone off". It's just the new edgy thing to do or be, common in gacha game fandom
No.2533
>>2532I feel you. There's also a large(ish) subset of nlogs, or women who love gore or horror or ryona art just to please or impress other men. I feel like for some women, they choose the most extreme fetishes not even because they like them, but because they want to show them off, like 'look how cool and different I am'. Not that nlogs are the only problem, but I feel like the exacerbate some issues because antis will find them and say 'look! here is a woman who likes disgusting things!'.
Idk. the whole issue has snowballed from what it originally used to be about.
No.2536
>>2532>>2533Yeah I really hate those types too, they pop up every now and then in LCF's fujo thread and they're so insufferable I'd think they were men pulling a psyop but I see actual women like them in the wild every now and then (some of them really are baiters from the antifujo thread though). It's clear they're just doing it for the shock value and to troll people for attention which makes it so immature and cringe. I have a lot of dark tropes I enjoy but I also respect others' sensibilities and only talk about them in proper company but bitches out there never shutting up about how hot extreme underage shota incest snuff rape is just because they want to trigger le normies.
>I feel like for some women, they choose the most extreme fetishes not even because they like them, but because they want to show them off, like 'look how cool and different I am'. I honestly think this is the case, I don't really believe they like those things but only pretend to for edgy internet points. They're more interested in sperging about how based they are for "hating IRL faggots and torturing shotas" than discussing any fujo things like ships or original creations.
No.2537
>>2536This is why I hate this performative bullshit. These people have no place in a hobby related circle because they never contribute. They don't care about the community or the fandom and are only there to jerk themselves off in front of everyone (be it antis or those edgy fuckers)
No.2538
I think people who are "political" fujos who only interact with Fandom as a way to upset people are stupid and frustrating to deal with.
People who just write gross stuff dont bother me because I think women have a right to enjoy whatever they like. There is a ton of guro by fujos for fujos that has existed long before twitter discourse happened. See literally the entire NitroChiral catalog. It's words or pixels who even care?
>>2527Same its such high-school drama tier and honestly as someone who doesn't use Twitter I barely see it. The few times I've gotten hate for it on Ao3 when I clicked on the account they hadn't even written anything. These people don't even contribute to Fandom so why should I be bothered? Lol
No.2539
>>2532Yeah I get you. I'm someone who has no problem with fucked up stuff in fiction, but sometimes you don't want them in certain piece of works (like the infamous usagi drop thing), but these people literally only thing in term of what pisses people off and coom.
No.2540
>>2539Haha off topic but I think the ending to Bunny Drop might be the most upset I've been with an ending in a while.
No.2543
sperging about something i hate seeing: people who write dark topics, fucked up shit, etc, but swear to hell and back that they’re writing it DIFFERENTLY than those filthy proshippers and they’re AWARE of the grossness. bonus points if every chapter end note is “X/Y SHIPPERS DNI!!” when the fic is literally about x and y. like, yeah, this whole fic you just wrote about x and y being abusive and nasty is literally why people like it.
there definitely seems to be a degree of puritan delusion where they seem convinced that shippers of insert-problematic-pairing-here legitimately find it cute and fluffy and find nothing wrong with it. it’s the strangest, most braindead shit. of course the dad/son shipper knows it’s wrong; that’s the appeal of it.
and as a side tangent, i can’t stand joke fics either. there’s a het ship which shall not be named where the most popular fic is literally just “x slam-dunked y into a trash can.” i’m sure at least some of you have seen it. the fact that fics like that are still technically “stories” means they can’t be taken down, so instead they just clog up the tags. ugh.
No.2544
>>2543now that's just ridiculous! it's just lying to yourself at this point.
No.2546
>>2543>of course the dad/son shipper knows it’s wrong; that’s the appeal of it.Hell yeah lol.
Honestly, all of the anti and proship discourse has become even more of a distant buzz for me since I stopped using twitter for good. I stopped exposing myself to that crappy discourse and I just can't take any side seriously. At all. I'm too old and jaded to care about the societal impact of yaoi fanfictions or whatever. If a ship clicks, then it fucking clicks and that's that.
No.2552
Man, back over a decade ago, everyone understood that someone's weird fetish on the internet was just that, something that usually stayed on the internet. I will never understand people who are up in arms about this crap. I would ignore them, but their values are leaking into companies and causing them to change/censor media. They are becoming a nuisance.
>>2523>Don't like? Don't read!This, take me back years ago where the biggest problem you had to deal with was the shippingwars. Very innocent times back then, I tell you.
>>2527> I wish female otaku were just like them and didn't give a shit,That's the problem, female otaku double down and don't tell kiddies and their enablers to shut up and get out. These people need to be actively filtered.
>>2532>>2533>ryona/gurofags being edgelords with a persecution complexMore news at 12.
No.2553
I wish it was easy to ignore this, but it's literally everywhere no matter where you go. I've stopped using SM for a while because someone decided to throw a shitfit at me for posting art of a pair that has an age gap…both characters are salarymen in their 30's. I get being against really extreme shit like lolishota, but good god man this shit gets so retarded.
No.2554
>>2553>I get being against really extreme shit like lolishota, but good god man this shit gets so retarded.You shouldn't even be against that, even if you morally don't condone it. With these people it's a constant slippery slope. That's how we got here in the first place.
No.2555
>>2554I get the argument, when you start gating things then it becomes more, but for that specifically, at least from the few women shotacons I've met, they take it way too far / it becomes the only thing they think and talk about which is why I worry. Thank you for your insight still, nonna, good to hear different perspectives
No.2556
>>2553>someone decided to throw a shitfit at me for posting art of a pair that has an age gap…both characters are salarymen in their 30's.Let them seethe. Don't entertain their bullshit.
No.2557
>>2554>>2555only tangentially related, but for me the whole lolishota argument comes down to the fact that it’s nearly impossible to regulate (art style obscures age, not all nude art is pornographic, etc), retarded to enforce in places where it is banned (i.e. that case where a dude was either jailed or heavily fined for simpsons porn or some shit), and ultimately whatever harm it may cause is still subject to debate and under scrutiny. but at the same time, i hate seeing men
and yes, some women too flaunt it to the degree that they come off as actual pedophiles, as well as shadman-type cases where it’s art depicting actual underaged actors.
No.2558
>>2538>These people don't even contribute to Fandom so why should I be bothered? LolThey usually jump from fandom to fandom anyway so yeah they don't matter at all and don't even notice it themselves.
No.2561
>>2555>they take it way too far / it becomes the only thing they think and talk about which is why I worryYeah, I'm the anon that complained about the kinds of edgy people that advertise themselves as dead dove and do nothing but talk about shota rape incest piss fart diapers all your favorites are pedophiles 24/7 that it just kinda gives bad vibes. If someone is a casual shotafag, fine. But being the ONLY thing you talk about? It's the same with male lolicons that make jacking off to Loli their entire personality, the ones under every anti-loli posts defending their right to fap to loli (which end up masking themselves among the 'proship' crowd) and while sometimes they MAY (very slight MAY) not be pedophiles, their obsession with that particular thing is too suspicious to ignore.
I actually had met someone on a different side of this, but was OBSESSED with gore/whump. They didn't care about characters, only to see them suffer as much as possible and project what they called "irl homicidal ideation" into them. They kept talking about roadkill, openly advertised their irl gore acc about suicides and s/h, loved to brag about making "their friends cut for them" and was just generally an awful person who was also defending one of their friends for killing cats because they were "schizophrenic". I hated that person but you know what they were hypocrite about? "proship mommies" and specially shotacons. We actually broke off the ""friendship"" (never liked them) exactly because they found out I liked shota and called me a groomer despite literally only having talked about shota once.
I don't fucking know why, but it's always the edgelord gurofags that hate most common shit like incest, age gaps, shota and whatnot but as soon as you call them out on their hypocrisy it's like WELLLL INCEST IS TRAUMATIZING TO PEOPLE!!! Fucking dead animals isn't????
No.2562
>been into swordboys for years>never really interacted with fandom>watching musical>"senpai" is consistently subbed as "brother" even though the sword's gimmick is acting like he's in an idol unit>realise somewhere in the world there is someone mad at Gou puppies humping each otherAhahahahahaha
>>2561Far far milder but this reminds me of that call out post linked in another thread, where someone was accused of being a pedo for drawing aged up porn on priv. I went into the accuser's Ao3 profile and it was full of RPF about minecraft streamers tagged with Major Character Death, gore, suicide, etc. Much of it xReader for them and their underage friends to enjoy. Nice standards, kiddo. The problematic content is only okay if you do it to real people, right?
They're so comfortable with what they like "not causing anyone any harm" that they're completely blind to their hypocrisy dealing with others. They did something dodgy once and the world didn't immediately end so they decided it was not just fine but morally correct. It's so incredibly short sighted and lacking in empathy.
No.2565
>>2555I think it's dangerous to start saying something is immoral and should be banned (not that that's what you're saying, but for example) just because a few people take it too far. If real children are being depicted or harmed, that's another matter entirely and needs to be prosecuted as the crime it is. But in the case of drawn, fictional characters there is no victim.
It's important to not make sweeping decrees about something just because of a few bad apples.
An interesting aside is that people who are actually committing terrible things (ie. Real pedos, animal abusers as mentioned in this thread, etc) tend to be the loudest about policing peoples' tastes in online fanfics, trying to redirect attention from their own sick activities.
No.2567
>>2565Oh god I don't have screenshots but this week a few guys were arguing on twitter about how Xenoblade 2 sucks because of the girls having big boobs and the guy who was saying he hates the fanservice in the game turned out to be registered as a sex offender in the US for raping a teenage girl. How on earth is he even allowed on the internet after doing prison?
No.2568
>>2567Had an experience like that in a Touhou server a while back where a outspoken anti-lolicon mod was a 40 year old man who was formerly in jail for CP possession.
People have the right to find fictional stuff gross, but I do find the loudest spokesmen have skeletons in the closet usually.
>>2562Nice lmao, that's such an ultimately futile endeavor for something most anime fans can understand just fine with working ears.
No.2575
There's also the term "comship" on TikTok that's been replacing the term proship to "anti"s. I was looking up a semi-popular pairing on there and found one post calling the enemies to lovers pairing "comship," and that it was problematic because the characters do not like each other in canon. I seriously thought for a second that this TikTok user created a whole word just to dunk on this one ship, but apparently its a larger TiKTok thing.
>>2565One of the many reasons why I'm happy men aren't typically into slash shipping. always skeletons in their closets.
No.2576
>>2575samefag. Comship means Complex Relationship.
No.2591
>>2576>the term means "Complex Relationship"So anything that isn't as simple as going to point A to point B and having more than one layer is problematic to those people? Not every relationship is wholesome or cutesy, there are ones that go through hard times, misunderstandings, skirmishes, etc, but that's the beauty of human relationships - how complex and fluid they are and just like water they're everchanging.
There are relationships (no matter real or fictional) that have strange and ugly sides, and that's a normal part of life, it's impossible to be agreeing about everything even if with the person you like.
No.2592
>>2575This term developed because Japanese artists were blocking everyone with proship dni in their profiles right? kek
No.2600
>>2596KEK i forgot about that comic. and yeah i won’t go into too much detail (since it’d kinda be derailing) but it happened earlier this year in the uk. the guy had a pic of, and i quote, “marge abusing bart” in his computer, and he nearly got three years jail time for it. life imitates art ig.
the fact that the us isn’t nearly as retarded about shit like this is one of the few perks to being an american fujoshi.
No.2609
>>2553>>2556Better yet, send BL into their DM's until they block you. Show them some love by bullying them.
No.2613
>>2612what is the sauce of this image? I'm curious
No.2615
>>2613Sorry nonna, can't remember the artist. You might have to wade through the sea of simon petrikov fanart to find the artist
No.2616
Did any of you have to deal with this fandom bs irl? Because it's very much of an online topic but I can imagine clueless zoomers trying to start shit irl in fan events, anime cons, this kind of places. I very much doubt I'll ever have to deal with this irl because my rl friends don't care about that and we just talk about BL normally together, I've met other fujoshi and other female nerds around my age in uni and then work who were also normal about it (and we're in our late 20s or early 30s now) and I don't go to cons anymore because of covid and because the ones in my country keep getting worse.
No.2617
>>2616Nope, most people I know who would be bothered by stuff like this already think anime as a whole is weird and Percy and wouldn't understand if I tried to explain Fandom nuances.
Its teenagers online and insular communities. I don't think it bleeds much, just a bit into translating/dubbing because those in the industry are also terminally online
No.2619
>>2616Yes. Unfortunately, my younger sister (who is legally an adult) is terminally online, and has harassed other people online to the point where she received a cease and desist in the mail. Well, that is to say, our parents received the cease and desist in the mail. Which is how I know about it, because they asked me to explain many internet things to them that day. Now, I would like to say I think people like my sister are a pretty rare case. Most people, even if they hate you, won't say it to you face, luckily. But some people are depraved and want attention.
Actually, maybe I should explain my ""antishipper"" sister's psychology a bit. She has a lot of mental issues. I don't say this to berate her, it's just the way she is, genuinely. It's also why she spends all her time awake online and on gatcha games. She's enrolled in college but idk how well that's actually going for her. People who are like her, try to dig up dirt on people they thing are committing moral crimes because they feel morally dirty themselves. She can't let things go, because I think she needs to prove to herself that she's better than those dirty pedophiles that ship xyz… She, who is so viciously mean to people in real life, is not actually protecting anyone, but she likes to feel like she is.
Anyways, I don't mean to rant and blog so specifically about my family, but I wanted to offer some perspective because I don't think a lot of people might have someone who is so mentally sick that they know so well. If anything, it was her that influenced me to become not like her. It's a sad existence, keeping mental scores in your head of how many virtual sins someone makes. It's exhausting. She tried to say things to me in person before, but these kinds of people real struggle to call you out in person, because most of them can't even look you in the eye and talk to you in a normal fashion.
If anyone else has any questions about someone like her/psychology of so called ""super antis"" (though I don't really like the term anti), I would be happy to try and answer them. I have an unfortunate amount of experience, after all.
No.2620
>>2619When I was in school I was always curious how other kids could bully other kids and feel justified together in being total dicks. Especially when one of those bullies met me again in college and was oblivious to how awful her or anyone else's behaviour was, and even suggested we had a good relationship. I wonder, now that the internet and anime are so incredibly mainstream and accessible, whether that means the proportion of people with the mental capacity to be a bully in fandom has significantly increased. Fandom hobbies used to be seen as a safe haven for nerds, geeks, outcasts - the kids who got shit on and rolled over. Now the people who give others shit are also present in enough numbers that you run into them all over.
No.2621
>>2620I'd argue the nerd is just as likely to be a dick if ever given the opportunity irl. You know the saying about how bullies tend to be lacking in self esteem and bully to feel better/because they have no friends? I think the internet just makes it easier to get the upper hand and assume the position of power a physically-unfit nerd or social reject would be lacking irl.
I think this is why autists bullying low functioning autists is a thing. (most lolcows) And also why so many people use an otherwise niche hobby to shit on people for being "lesser fans" or xyz. Sometimes this is harmless stuff that's fun to argue like sub vs. dubs, best girl/boy, and stuff that while someone might feel superior to the other is still sparking discussion and friendly banter. But it can swiftly spiral into "You like x and you're retarded, let's all bully this person" or "You aren't a true fan of this character because you haven't even shaped your life around him like I have! I'm the true x fan and you're a normie."
Pettiest stuff to bank your self-worth on. But also I think this stuff is rarer once you get into the more creative works and less contributing discourse fandom. While it's not set in stone people who draw/write tend to be more chill from my experience.
>>2619Thankfully it sounds like she's youngish? You said college but not which year, I think there is a lot of development mentally from 18-22ish I'd say there is still time for her to reflect and grow. Do you ever do fannish hobbies with her, watch anime or play games? Not expecting you to tell her your dark ships but maybe you could subtlety calm her down when she brings it up and point out how not terrible some of the things she's ranting about are in a nonconfrontation relaxed setting.
No.2622
>>2619Thanks for writing about your experience with your sister, it's really fascinating to hear about how adult "antis" are because I don't think I've ever met one over the age of 18. Them being sad and angry people looking to find purpose in life isn't surprising at all.
I used to be an "anti" way, way back, well over a decade ago, when it wasn't even a real thing yet and I was a teenager around the age of 14. It was simply due to being exposed to adult material of my favourite characters too soon and being too underdeveloped and immature I didn't know how to handle it so I lashed out in a fashion that most likely came off as puritanian. But I was 14, I shouldn't even been a part of that discussion. I also joined some "anti-yaoi" community of the time and I have to wonder about the actual adults there who took me in and enabled me, but goddamn even the fujos of that time were solid in their argumentation and left me seething every time kek.
No.2623
>>2619>Well, that is to say, our parents received the cease and desist in the mail.Holy shit it must have been so weird for them to find out about your sister's internet use.
>Actually, maybe I should explain my ""antishipper"" sister's psychology a bit. She has a lot of mental issuesIt reminds me of a close friend of mine. She also has issues to the point where she takes antidepressants and they work very well on her and suspected she's a high functioning autist but she couldn't get tested because she had to move to another country. And while I hate people who try diagnosed themselves with autism or adhd I wouldn't be surprised if she were right in her specific case. The thing is that she's far rom an anti but she's in her late 20s now just like me and being an anti back when we were younger wasn't really what it is now so I think it must be a generational thing as well. So now my friend is obsessed with a specific mmo and with her online "friends" that she won't stop shit talking behind their back and she has been a neet for years now, ever since she graduated, and her easy, mandatory internship before that is the only job she ever had. The only reason why I can't say she's obsessed with gacha like your sister is because she's boycotting Genshin over the whole Sumaru characters being pale debacle, which I don't care about all that much since I don't play that game. However my friend is so non-confrontational she won't even mute twitter accounts that annoy the fuck out of her.
No.2632
>draw invader zim porn >colleagues spread it and you lose your job+health insurance>choose to succumb to your disability, try to live the rest of your short life in peace>guy who kicked it all off invited to youmaconhttps://twitter.com/Youmacon/status/1708413460449526268/hiddenThey locked the post and hid the replies lol
No.2633
>>2632Holy shit I looked more into it and I saw several people online saying that the reason why that guy started targeting her was because she refused to have sex with him. If that's true it's even worse than I thought at first. Having sex with this deranged gorilla looking faggot would be akin to committing bestiality, of course anyone would refuse to touch him with a ten foot pole. Some people are saying that the girl already lost her life and others are saying she's still living but not for very long anymore. All of this seems so excessive.
No.2635
>>2632It's also pretty clear why she'd be a target. CSA survivor, abusive relationship, etc.
She was likely a person who could be manipulated or baited into emotions where other people would have the sense to not respond, making her look 'unstable'.
I've noticed this thing with creepy dudes from sexist cultures where they pride themselves on baiting women into having emotions, and once the women have emotions, the men have 'won'. They can now tell themselves that the woman was a 'crazy bitch'.
With time, this girl may have healed and gotten to the point where she would be on the same level as most other people. She will not have that time now.
No.2657
>>2632I never followed her closely but this breaks my heart, she didn't deserve this at all. I'm pretty sure she's in hospice now? With the help of her friend naminepuppy.
Youmacon posted this update a couple days ago.
Are they really doubling down and not kicking this guy off the guest list?
No.2658
>>2657I imagine the company that organizes this con could get in legal trouble if they decide to not invite the guy anymore based on the whole thing as long as there's no ongoing legal investigation? They could be worried about the guy suing for defamation ot libel or whatever. It's not the same thing as random people online just shit talking him.
No.2659
>>2658According to a thread on LC, this girl is a munchie and this is not the first time she's suicide baited.
No.2660
>>2659Yeah if that's the reputation she has no wonder the con doesn't want to tell that fat guy to not come anymore, that would make it even more likely for the guy to sue them for whatever reason.
No.2661
>>2658>>2660Reading older call outs about him (stuff from 2017~), he does sound like the type to threaten legal action if you disagree with him. People have accused him of purposefully dropping staff from credits or trying to cut off access to royalties for completed work. General professional maliciousness towards anyone who criticises his decisions.
It's a shame conventions never see a significant difference in attendance caused by drama like this, because there will always be x000 teenagers who don't know anything going on in the world and just want to hang out in Hero Academia cosplays. So they invited a random American cartoon guy known to shit talk Japanese media to a Japanese cartoon convention? The kids won't even attend any panels near him to know he's there. I was a kid too once, and I sure didn't boycott any events that invited completely irrelevant Americans who behaved badly in public (though my mum had a lot to say about Naruto's dub voice actress that one time).
No.2662
the more i read about this drama, the more im convinced that both sides - antis and pros - are retarded.
as
>>2659 mentioned, this person has a long history of being a munchie among other cow-ish behaviors like schizoposting and self-diagnosing DID. this doesn't mean her ex-friends are in the right for getting her canceled in the name of invader zim porn and other thoughtcrimes but take her sob story with a grain of salt.
antis' retardation is self-explanatory, but pros are the opposite side of the coin - denying porn addiction exists, unabashedly supporting pedophile organizations and generally enabling the most annoying coomer behavior. its fine to be into degen stuff, but don't make it your entire public personality. also, idk about other fujos but i dont want to be grouped with lolicons because i have "brothers" or "age gap" (using full air quotes here) ships.
>>2661alas, your average con-goer isn't plugged into twitter drama so unless its something of vic mignogna proportions (and he had a long running reputation before #MeToo was even a thing) they're none the wiser. lol did naruto's dub va say anything? kek the most noteworthy things i know about her are that she doesn't watch anime and she's a lesbian.
No.2663
>>2662Yeah Vic Mignogna storytime even used to be a thing on 4chan back in the day. Stuff like the time an anon was gophering and got told to hire a taxi to use the McDonalds drive thru at night, and when he refused Vic decided he would walk to the drive thru window and start an argument in god's name.
>naruto's dub va say anythingI don't recall anything specific she said aside from calling people honey or sweetie, but my mum was there for the usual Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica stuff, and for some reason they had this lady flown into London and made to sit in on random panels. She chewed gum the entire time and didn't give a shit what was going on. Mum didn't know what Naruto was or why it was being advertised on everything, let alone that this random fat lady had a connection to it, so it was all the more annoying to have someone so disinterested given a microphone. These days I think I'd shit talk the event staff where they can see it for dumping a guest like that on people.
No.2664
>>2662>but i dont want to be grouped with lolicons because i have "brothers" or "age gap" (using full air quotes here) ships. I think any space where men are allowed to air their fetishes quickly becomes unbearable BUT the true danger of antis is that women are seen as a more vulnerable group so any harassment campaign WIL 100% end up targeting fujos eventually.
No.2667
>>2663i remember all of the stories of creep behavior from the /cgl/ days of yore. it was a question of when, not if, for allegations to surface.
>She chewed gum the entire time and didn't give a shit what was going on.she openly admitted she doesn't watch (and still doesn't watch) anime, and she isn't part of the dub va scene (afaik naruto is the only anime role on her resume) so i can understand if she felt like a fish out of water? yeah, def a poor choice of guest but in the grand scheme of things there's worst things than being an apathetic guest
>>2664>the true danger of antis is that women are seen as a more vulnerable group so any harassment campaign WIL 100% end up targeting fujos eventually.i couldn't agree more - female fans will always lose regardless of the outcome of the pro vs anti wars. the bitter truth is that women without fail will always be judged more strictly and rebuked more harshly for the content they produce/consume due to the normalization of male degeneracy. fujos inevitably get the short end of the stick because moids (and a lot of their handmaidens) cannot bear the thought of women expressing their sexuality in a way that does not center mens' pleasure. in fact i suspect the real reason yaoi makes moids seethe so much is because they loathe the idea that women can play the uno reverso card and objectify men and depict them on the receiving end of male violence.
i fear that in the pro/anti discourse wars what's truly at stake isn't necessarily the freedom to enjoy "problematic" content, but the range of content considered socially acceptable for women to create and enjoy. it doesn't do any good to pretend like women never like or produce or consume extreme content, but degenerate female coomers are already by and far less numerous compared to male coomers. more importantly, comparing female degeneracy with male degeneracy is a false equivalency because the reality is that women do not go out of their way to perform sexual crimes irl.
No.2669
>>2662>antis' retardation is self-explanatory, but pros are the opposite side of the coin - denying porn addiction exists, unabashedly supporting pedophile organizations and generally enabling the most annoying coomer behavior. its fine to be into degen stuff, but don't make it your entire public personality. also, idk about other fujos but i dont want to be grouped with lolicons because i have "brothers" or "age gap" (using full air quotes here) ships. I agree, I used to be into the whole discourse thing when it was still booming in maybe 2019 or so, can't remember exact years anymore. Anyway while I appreciate all the work proshipper activists have done because in the end it paid off, nowadays if you say "fujos are fetishizers" you get clowned on by everyone around you and nobody takes you seriously when back in the mid to late 2010s everyone would agree. That said, they kept loose gates and let in genuine pedos who started exploiting the narrative for their own need. Like saying shit like "you can't be a proship if you don't support lolicon!" as if shipping a fictional 20 year old and a 17 year old in a developed relationship or liking SebaCiel was the exact same thing as enjoying mindless loli rape porn made for men who already make up 99% of all CSA perpetrators. They also started attracting those mentally ill edgelords that were discussed in upthread, the kind who will sperg about loving shotaloli rape and their piss/shit/blood/vomit fetishes all day just to get a reaction out of people. Because of them a lot of people consider "proshipping" to be "problematic shipping" and a whitewashed synonym for pedos similar to MAPs when it's just allowing people to ship whatever they want and encourage people to mind their own business.
No.2670
>>2664It's funny because I can't stand these guys but some of them feel true solidarity with fujoshi for the reason you cited. A bunch of male otaku in general harrassed the American publishing company that released a cutesy BL manga with a shitty translation like last year that made it seem like the crossedressing uke was a tranny out of principles because "if they keep doing this to video games and to yaoi our own stuff will be censored even more often" and "don't do this to yaoi!" it was super fucking weird to witness.
No.2671
>>2670Lol, which title is this?
I wouldn’t count on male otaku as fujo allies; at the very best their support is highly conditional and situational. It’s like second wave feminists cozying up to the religious right, or radfems allying with conservatives; it’s a “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” situation. I wouldn’t be surprised if the male otaku were motivated more by opposition to the tranny/gendie agenda as opposed to sincere concern for the integrity of BL. It’s like how male fans fly into a rage at the thought of censorship not out of artistic integrity, but because coomers wanna coom.
No.2673
>>2670They're not "allies" and they don't feel "true solidarity", just like old homophobic, misogynist conservatives aren't "allies" just because they think trannies are degenerate. They will turn against fujos immediately when we have a conflict of interest and they want to get their way. It's similar to men faking concern for womens' safety when they can pin rapes on immigrants but then turn around to groom and sexually assault 13-year old girls on discord.
No.2677
>>2672I see - looking at the fallout it seems like the outrage is from the "don't insert your gender bs into the translation" and the "localization is evil!!" angle with a smattering of "b-but muh crossdresser/femboy erasure!!1"
if this manga wasn't about a femboy, they wouldn't have cared. irl femboys, crossdressers and their ilk are dangerously close to troons, and there is an undeniable connection between males trooning out and pornsickness, so it's just men defending their own interests. On occasions when the stars align and females and males form an alliance (eg the proship side), you will never see straight male coomers going to bat to defend fujo interests.
No.2681
>>2673Well yeah, no shit, but for some reason I always expect this type of guys to have reactions more similar to shonentards who think drawing Naruto and Sasuke holding hands is blasphemy and it makes you a fake fan or some shit. The fact that they seem to acknowledge fujoshi as authentic nerds like them with a proper subculture is always unexpected to me idk. The real issue with them is that the way they act makes it hard to take them seriously so they will rightfully say that making a gay guy in a yaoi manga or in a localized Japanese video game a tranny is homophobic and everyone will ignore them anyway.
No.2683
>>2682even if people thought she was annoying i dont think she deserved the shit she got for it. especially if her work was tied up to her healthcare. grim all round. im glad people spammed the comments section of the con twitter because it shows people still care.
No.2684
>>2682The Vee girl? She's clearly schizo but didn't deserve all that. I hate that if she was a man, none of this would have never happened, all this dogpiling almost always happens to just women.
No.2685
>>2682Needless and despicable and I hope the guy involved gets stabbed in the urethra by a rusty screwdriver
No.2688
>>2669>enjoying mindless loli rape porn made for men who already make up 99% of all CSA perpetratorsI don't think this is fair. Enjoying mindless loli rape porn and being a CSA perpetrator are not the same thing. One is fantasy porn of inhuman looking anime and the other is causing harm to a living, breathing human being. I say let the lolicons enjoy as long as they keep quiet about their interests and don't center their lives around the degenerate porn they consume. Just because some men are predators doesn't mean all men should be forbidden from looking at doujinshi. I think it would be hypocritical to enjoy SebaCiel rape porn and turn around and tell men they can't like their own stuff. Be it shota or loli, no real people are hurt in the making of it.
But of course I completely agree that the edgelords that constantly try to get a rise out of people are absolutely retarded.
No.2689
>>2682Ang? I read their doc and even if a lot of things could possibly be exaggerated, the shit with the overtly obsessed person that sent them gifts and love praises that later turned against them going "yes I love when people suffer" triggered my already deeply settled fear of people to an extreme. Why is it always the pastel pink uwu cutesy people that are usually genuinely awful?
It's stuff like that which makes me so afraid of people, and to think it was due to IZ porn
No.2696
>>2632If a guy did the same no one would talk about it.
No.2707
does anyone else get the feeling that a lot of callouts are just interpersonal drama at their core? his is why so many antis are hypocrites; integrity was never their priority. you don't like someone, you're envious of them, you have beef with someone, or you had a falling out - no better way to get back than character assassination by labeling them as dangerous person. we all know that morality policing is basically a proxy for ship wars (eg "my pure and wholesome ship is so much better than your toxic and abusive ship!") so its not unreasonable to conclude that most callouts will be personally motivated. back in the day, beef between people would've been labeled as fandom wank - the term "wank" inherently implies a degree of frivolity - but now we're stuck with discourse, which is just wank cosplaying as high and mighty debates about social and moral issues.
on a different note, i hate how antis and their likes use morality policing to gatekeep who can and can't participate in fandom. this isn't so much an issue in big fandoms where you can block and go your merry way, but its like excommunication for a small fandom/ship that's dominated by the same consistent group of people. ngl it sort of gives me mean girl vibes, using morality policing to basically make a clique. you know how some women were unpopular or ugly or a loser back in high school, so they try to recreate the clique dynamic in their post-school social circles so they can be the queen bee? it's that, but instead of being a queen bee they derive satisfaction from the power they hold over other people, probably to compensate for a lack in their irl life. judging from the way anon in
>>2619 described their anti sister, maybe this description isnt so far off the mark.
No.2750
>>2707>does anyone else get the feeling that a lot of callouts are just interpersonal drama at their core?This is what I always tell others. They almost always happen between ex-friends or people that talk to each other, probably on discord. I usually do the exact same crimes as others but never get callouts this is how I first noticed.
I recently witnessed it more closely and was proven right. Someone started bitching about another user,calling them toxic and evil blabla. Reading it sounded 100% like the shit she was mad about was nothing but a harmless discord argument and she never fucking posted any proof for her claims which is always a red flag. She just said "that user is toxic and manipulative towards me and others (that "other" being another friend of her) so condemn and block them". I went out of my way of asking the callout victim and they confirmed my suspicion. Unlike the accuser they showed me the whole discord argument.
It was literally just an argument among former friends that got a bit heated, same shit you and I are doing with others sometimes until we make up again or stop talking but keep it private like a normal person.
Call out people are literally grownass adults that run to their mother to tattletale about others and ask everybody else to be mean to that other person because they weren't nice to them because they are too much of a pussy and self-absorbed ass to solve the problem themselves. Absolute toddler behavior.
No.2753
>>2707>This is why so many antis are hypocritesKnow how else you can notice this? If you draw gay art and "anti-shippers" with "shippers DNI" bio retweet your shit no matter how evil the characters are that you have paired up. They don't care about it and they usually ship so-called problematic stuff as well, they are only "anti" whenever they feel like attacking some specific other person (usually either an acquaintance of them or an artist they are envious of for getting more "Likes") over it.
No.2785
>>2680>proship>antiship>proship>antishipWhy are zoomers writing essays on the morality of 'something, something' pertaining to 2D fictional characters? Is it the flouride in the water that's causing them to be this autisticly asnine about their chinese cartoons? Introducing normies into anime was a giant mistake, nonnas, I miss our fourms and our live journals.
No.2786
>>2785you can blame the voltron fandom for that because the whole proship vs anti drama exploded exponentially from there. i will forever blame klance shippers for being jealous of sheith's popularity for the state we're in now
No.2787
>>2785I mean there are scholarly articles back from the 90s about the homoerotic subtext of Batman and Star Trek. I remember long-ass Supernatural essays on LiveJournal. It's actually one of the big ways I distinguish male and female Fandom spaces. While it varies depending on Fandom women seem way more interested in writing about the implications of their fanworks both in the context of the franchise and the wider societal effect.
Pro/anti is too Twitter focused for me to actually encounter and/or engage with, but I just see it as an autistic example of above.
No.2789
>Introducing normies into anime was a giant mistake, nonnas
letting normies into the internet was a true cataclysm for cyberspace as a whole tbh
No.2798
>>2786The worst part is that both ships were utter shit too. It wasn't worth the salt and cultural garbage it brought to fandom
No.2802
>>2786Voltron and its characters aren't even good enough to cause this much autism, I'm still mad to this day that it made so many stupid teenage normies ruin online spaces so fast.
No.2804
>>2798>>2802i was a klance shipper back then and yeah both fans were insane and delusional. many of them genuinely believed their ships were going to be canon, i'd never seen that much mental illness concentrated into one community over what were the most basic ships. though klance fans are still worse for singlehandedly destroying fandom spaces with their discourse
No.2808
>>2707When dropping huge google docs on people filled with discord screenshot was still a thing like all of them are just friend group/discord server drama with a buzzword title. Tons and tons of DM logs that didn't make any sense to people outside of their circles referring to people or events you had no idea about but everyone just saw the "user @/yaoinonna is a pedorape apologist and a white supremacist" header and took it at face value without even opening the "receipts". Like you said, it's just repackaged fandom wank. It was dumb and boring in 2006 and it's dumb and boring in 2023.
>>2786My girlfriend was so fucking into that piece of shit show and made her quite literally insane with the shipping drama bullshit and I hated it just for that, but now it still continues to haunt me in this form. The proship antiship dichotomy didn't start there because I saw it making rounds in like 2012 the earliest but Voltron definitely popularized it.
No.2810
>>2808DA, KEK my ex gf was into that show too and she wanted me to watch it. I watched it and ended up shipping her notp.
Also damn 2012? Any particular fandom or just in general? The earliest I saw proship antiship drama was 2013 during Levi/Eren shipping when SNK had just got an anime and fangirl exchanges basically went "It's pedo!!" "I ship it to cope!" "Oh okay." I knew of fangirls who started lying just to get other fangirls off their back.
I think that's also where the "I have one million mental illnesses that are far beyond your comprehension so I can ship what I want without question." concept started, because accusations of lying about trauma were being thrown about. Tumblr loves escalation instead of just telling haters to stfu and gtfo.
No.2811
>>2810AYRT, she made me watch it telling me it was really good so I did, hated it, told her to never make me watch it again kek. But she kept me up to speed with the stupid fandom drama and got caught up in the flamewars insanity. I'm still amazed at my patience and how I didn't end up dumping her over that but my lord it was close. I have no idea what about that show made people lose their minds but maybe because the authors were active on social media and interacted with the fans all the time encouraging their parasocial delusions.
>Any particular fandom or just in general?I don't think it was any particular fandom, my memory is foggy because I mostly waved it off as a few crazies. I guess some of it was also the aftermath of the chaotic 00's yaoi fangirl trend and the infamous homestuck con videos that spread like crazy after youtube became more mainstream. It was during that time that the entire social justice/identity politics movement was growing exponentially and people were throwing everything to the wall seeing what narrative sticks, but to me the deep rooted reason was and has always been homophobia to a degree. Sure they have the well-meaning people who genuinely believe that fujos and BL is all about pedophilic rape porn and Aidens who get way too personally invested with the self insertion that they become uncomfortable seeing non-Aidens ship their kinnies and interpret it as fetishism, but it has always had a puritanian homophobic undertone to it and putting stories about same sex relationships under the microscope.
I also think that Tumblr tumbling down (pun intended) and everyone migrating into Twitter and exposing their insanity to a wider demographic fed into the fandom wars because everyone turned hypervigilant and defensive. If Muskrat kills Twitter for good I hope we return into smaller fandom spaces for easier crowd control.
No.2814
>>2810yeah, i remember levi/eren drama as some of the earliest “modern” ship discourse too. but even then, a lot of the discourse i saw was less “this is irredeemable and if you ship it you’re a monster” and more “you have to ship this in the right way,” aka the whole trauma/coping/throwing in a disclaimer that it’s very wrong and nasty/etc ordeal. but i personally think of 2015/2016 as being the point where a lot of current discourse trends began, especially as literal children’s media (i.e. steven universe) became the target of discussion.
but then again, 2016 was also when i became more terminally online than ever before, so maybe that’s it.
No.2817
>>2786Every time I remember this is how it happened I go crazy. I got baited into watching all but the last season of Voltron because the porn was so good but came out of the whole thing shipping nobody which is EXTREMELY unusual for me. How the FUCK did such an average show irradiate fandom with its fallout?
No.2818
>>2808>It was dumb and boring in 2006 and it's dumb and boring in 2023. at least in 2006 the wank was closed-off and avoidable. the nature of lj communities/friends-locked posts made it so that the sperging was isolated to a containment zone.
now, interpersonal drama, shipping wars and serious discussions about sociopolitical issues are all debated with the same ferocity. they're distinct from one another but simultaneously unified, like a bizarre terminally online version of the holy trinity. since fandom coalesced onto a few platforms instead of being scattered in islands like the days of LJ/discrete fan forums, it is impossible to avoid the discourse because cross-contamination is inevitable. wank of days yore was intermittent and had a beginning and end, but the disk horse is never ending; fandom is in a perpetual state of discourse.
>>2810>Any particular fandom or just in general?NAYRT, but my theory is that pro/anti discourse emerged as a consequence of a few concurrent movements through the late 2000s to mid 2010s:
>the SJWfication of fandom as part of a growing awareness towards sociopolitical issues>the radicalization of politics both irl and on the internet leading up to gamergate, 2016 us presidential elections, etc.>the migration of fandom from disparate, long-form, text-oriented, self-contained forums scattered across several sites to a few, short-form, visually oriented, corporate-owned platformsvoltron and klance vs sheith wars was just the culmination of all of the worst developments to occur over the last decade
No.3204
>>3203I have to read that shit right now. If it's badly written or badly researched I'll be disappointed.
No.3205
>>3204I skimmed through it and it seems to be a summary of the ongoing pro/anti discourse (using Voltron as the example) as moral policing using the framework of discourse analysis in linguistics. Tbh if you’re already balls deep in online fandom and pro/anti discourse none of the trends described or conclusions reached are novel, but it goes to show the anti movement is strong enough to warrant academic interest.
No.3206
>>3203Clicking on that and seeing my native language on the first page was a jumpscare.
No.3207
>>3203Was interesting to see all of the stuff I've seen unfold over the years gussied up for academia. One aspect of these writeups that always gets tiresome to me is how it's always presented as "women and queer people" like you NEED that "queer people" part for it to have legitimacy. Shipping is a majority AFAB activity, period. AMAB people in fandom don't ship they just like to bully girls about canon het, look at R34, or are yuricucks who keep to themselves. To try to diversify that statistic feels hollow to me, despite being in DA QWEER PPL category myself. The majority-AFABness of it all is what makes it so full of strife compared to any other aspect of fandom.
No.3249
>>3207>AFAB>AMAByou know you can just say female and male, right?
No.3252
>>3249The language implies a consideration for gender specials in a way that fe/male does not. It is a preventative measure in 2020s fandom.
No.3253
>>3252I know that it's just completely unnecessary to use it on here specifically
No.3255
>>3253I recognize that I am unlikely to get dogpiled by some smol bean theyfab here but I'd rather not break the habit of typing like a dweeb in this particular brand of discourse, lol.
No.3264
>>3262Can these people go a day without politicizing proship/anti drama? I just want to read age gap yaoi because it's hot. It's only Westerners that are like this, not even ESL asian fujos pull this shit.
No.3265
>>3264Just don't use Twitter.
I almost never see this stuff.
No.3267
>>3262Jesus that is a mess.
>>3263The only things I remember having visceral reactions to were screamer flashes with fucked up furry costumes. It's so fucking weird to me that these younger gens are both the most kneejerk righteous about media ever, and the ones who pass around real death videos like it's nothing.
>>3264iirc that user is a social sciences researcher who writes academic papers on fandom and politics. Kind of inescapable if you open her page on purpose. Never seen them in my updates because I just follow artists and official series accounts.
No.3268
>>3265Alternatively, I don't see this stuff cause I only follow nonpolitical artists on twitter.
No.3275
>>3263I audibly snorted at your picrel kek, saving it for future use.
>>3262I applaud every proshipper who fought hard with retards to normalize being a fujo and make the "b-but gay fetishization!" discourse the laughing stock of all fandoms etc but god damn did that community get hijacked hard by actual degenerates and people who enable them. I jumped ship the moment I was expected to accept male lolicons and people seriously thought they were comparable to teenage boy yaoi, screw that. The next wave should be telling young women that they can like their MHA ships in peace without having to tolerate pedo malegaze toddler rape.
No.3276
>>3275>The next wave should be telling young women that they can like their MHA ships in peace without having to tolerate pedo malegaze toddler rape.My litmus test is shipping. I'm way more lenient in judgement if it's a ship that just happens to involve a loli(/baba or shota). Male shippers are REALLY rare, but if they Get It then I'm fine with them. Cumbrain males almost always think less of or outright bully shippers, so they can fuck off to jail.
No.3279
I don't care about male loli-enjoyers and say let them do their thing as long as they're not interested in real children and as long as they leave me the fuck alone to enjoy what I like
No.3281
>>3279>>3280My issue with them is precisely that more often than not they actually like little kids. Literally every lolicon moid who I have met in my life has """joked""" about real little girls and has been a huge creep about them to the point they really should have their hard drives checked.
No.3283
>>3280>Issue is male lolicons can be so annoying about anythingI stopped visiting /a/ threads for any anime that has a prominent little girl character cause it'd just be nonstop 'muh cunny' posting. Buddy daddies is a prime example of this. Though as long as it's fictional I can shove the lolicon enjoyers in the same category as where I put people who are into stuff like piss/scat. I think it's gross but I guess they're not hurting anyone.
No.3287
>>3281that's because lolicons/shotacons ARE pedophiles. obviously 2D CP drawings are not as bad and not the same as actual real-life CP because no child is actually hurt but pedophilia is just "the attraction to little kids". it doesn't matter if you actually hurt them or not. no lolicon moid should ever be allowed near children
No.3337
>>3287Hmm. Do you think people into noncon are rapists? Following that line of reasoning and all.
No.3338
>>3337NTA but to be honest I am also fairly suspicious of men with a rape fetish because of the very real fact they commit 99% of sexual crimes and rape, there's actually a real concern over women in western countries experiencing nonconsensual sexual violence during sex (choking, slapping, spitting etc.) because men have rotted their brains with easily accessible online porn and genuinely think women enjoy it, there's a site called "We can't consent to this" documenting such cases. The reason why the plan to use 3D-generated child porn as a "safe substitute for real child abuse material" was swiftly retracted was that studies found out that even imaginary material helped to normalize such behavior for pedos and thus made it more likely for them to assault a real life children. The same goes for fictional violence, extended periods of photorealistic, immersive violence in video games can cause effects similar to traumatic events in real life.
As for fujos, who cares. Generally speaking BL, even those featuring underage characters, is portrayed as a coherent story with some amount of depth rather than brainless smut made for cooming like what men consume. Men have a much lower threshold for sexual violence due to it being such a normalized behavior for them to begin with so they can't be trusted with just enjoying fiction as it is.
No.3339
>>3338NTA, and a thing for me personally when it comes to noncon is… for a lot of women they want to be the one being abused, for a lot of men they want to be the one doing the abusing. Now, as a fujo I don't really care if someone is 'self-inserting' into noncon as a victim or not… but for men I think its important to keep in mind that when they watch noncon a lot of them are viewing themselves as the rapist, not as the victim. I think that difference makes a pretty important distinction.
No.3340
>>3339That's a very good distinction. What women are memed into calling a "rape fetish" can never even be called a rape because they're fully consenting to the situation and in control of their fantasy, it would be more accurate to call it coercion kink or something. For men they're assuming the rapist's role and they get off to causing pain and humiliation against the victim's will which is basically what rape is.
No.3341
>>3340There are plenty of fujos who like top!POV and self insert as them even if it's less common. The difference is that they don't usually follow it up with screeds about how men are all submissive whores who naturally want to be raped in RL.
No.3349
>>3344I'm embarrassed to admit it but as someone who used to be in the hentai scene I actually got out of it because the fetishes became way too intense in the past 10-15 years. Like when the average "fucked up fetish" (if we exclude gore from both comparisons) in 2006 was futanari I couldn't even describe what the mainstream hentai is like now. I fancy myself quite the fujocoomer and I have never witnessed a fujo become equal in fucked up-ness with a garden variety porn addicted moid, I mean not even most dead dove shit rivals them. Even when it comes close it still has a crafted narrative making it more of a literary experience than whatever "virgin goblin hunter lilia goblin gangrape slime vore gaping anal torture scat ending" content scrotes are consooming.
No.3355
>>3344I think the more accurate statement would be that women have more elaborate fantasies. I would stick with a story set in goblin rapemurder world if the plot was adequate and there was a ship in there I liked, real good stage for whump, you know? But if the goal is to hit the slideshow of goblin rapemurder? Save some time and go look at Fatalpulse, the best to ever do it.
>>3349Dudes are rarely in it to jack off their heart. To me that will always be the general divider between male and female NSFW. I look at both, but the stuff dudes tend toward (like Fatalpulse/Asanagi) is more of a spectacle or art study to me. I don't find it erotic at all.
No.3432
>>3337ayrt and that's not the same line of reasoning but I agree with
>>3338 it's literally just crime statistics. you sound defensive but you should really stop grouping yourself in with men.
>>3339>>3340true. also I've found that when a women is into stuff like that she's usually been a victim of sexual violence herself while when a man is into that stuff he's probably on sex offender list himself
>>3325one of my fandoms is filled with zoomers that scream "pedophilia" about a ship between a 18 and 23 year old. zero logic. anti/pro shit just turns everyone into retards incapable of thinking for themselves. everything's either black or white and only bad bc someone else said it was. also lol at your Jojo example bc that's literally the age difference between two highschoolers
No.3516
>>3487>I'm a shotacon myself>I do enjoy some oppai loli>Also i always get weird vibes from female shotacons because i always assume the worst, because let's be real women get away with a lot of stuff>I actually get more weirded out by female shotacons than male loliconsHow many bucks do we wanna wager this is a moid or TIM?
No.3518
>>3487>and if they're the ones toppingI will never understand the appeal of this.
>but i do enjoy some oppai loliAnd also this, I only get the appeal of loli if it's with a hot guy and I really don't get the appeal if you give her huge boobs.
No.3519
>>3518why would you want to ruin a hot guy by making him a pedo? that's disgusting
No.3520
>>3516I was thinking the same, it's either a male or bait.
No.3521
>>3520“I do love me some oppai loli” and “female shotacons are ickier than male lolicons”, said no self-respecting fujo ever
No.3527
>>3525maybe not if they only touch little boys but if they mess with girls, that's just fucking nasty
No.3529
>>3518>I will never understand the appeal of this.NTA but I like size difference, age gap, and younger tops, so if you're already into all that it can happen. For me the focus is usually on the older guy - the visual contrast enhances the hotness of the adult character. I tend to like the nonhuman kind of shota top though, so like kami, youkai, demons, whatever - or at least having some kind of element that levels the playing field, like Mob in MobRei. The guilt involved when you add noncon/dubcon into the mix is a lot of the appeal.
>>3519Generally it's a huge turnoff for me if the older character is just a perv into the underage character from the start, barring some exceptions because it depends on their canon morals or lack thereof (
>>3525 being a good example kek)
I usually like the feelings to start as onesided from the younger character, and it's pretty much an excuse to thirst after the older character from their perspective.
I'm even pickier with loli than shota and the one (1) loli ship I have is nonhuman/immortal nonhuman dude and I don't want anything happening until she gets older. There's a world of difference between early teens loli/shota and pre-teen though.
(Does Akari even count as loli since she's 15, anyway? She's just short)
No.3536
>>3516>>3521Not that anon but while I think male lolicons are worse by a large margin, the shotafags that emulate that same type of behavior give me a bad vibe too. I'm not sure if they do it to appear extra edgy but I never thought stuff like "god I wish I could molest a little boy today" type of humor was ever funny.
Also, regarding other replies, it's surprisingly common to see people make characters into pedos or groomers because it's hot.
Personally I kinda hate it unless it fits the character but even then there's just an off feeling in the back of my mind.
I do like top shota too, maybe because of the subversion of small topping adult, the brat being more dominant and in control (without a twist of lolno the adult always wins).
I always have a feeling that the ones writing hardcore explicit child rape with eerily detail probably are just extremely mentally ill though
No.3537
>>3516yes anon i'm a male because i uh….have different opinions…the horror! and how many men do you know that are into danmei kek
>>3518Size difference, plus the idea of a bigger stronger man being a slut for a cute shota! I do prefer when the bottom is also a bit motherly while also being older and having some meat on the bones. I know it's not for everyone which is why finding content about top gay shotas is so hard….thank god i found some good stuff in the JJK fandom (mostly dadson). As for lolis i just like big boobs and i'm ok with lolis so mixing both int one thing gets me going. I do prefer loli x female futa, but not as much my favorite is still shota
No.3539
>>3487>I actually get more weirded out by female shotacons than male lolicons, tho i KNOW for a fact male lolicons are the ones more likely to be into the real shit.I don't get this at all. I agree that it's very disturbing when shotacons or lolicons will post about real children or get a little too into it with realistic descriptions, but I find female shotacons to have a much better grip on reality. If you're trying to argue women get away with actual pedophilia more often, well I'd disagree. There are JSTOR studies on this trying to prove that women get lighter sentences and they've failed to do so. Women don't generally "get away" with things the way moids insist we do.
No.3540
Something that deeply confuses me with certain types of ecchi haters is that they draw the worst coomer stuff themselves. Like just recently one of them got a meltdown because an anime was depicting women as sexualised because one of the female characters was horny. She also claimed it was erasing the gay. But when I clicked her profile her art was just.. genderbent anime men who were drawn with fat wobbly asses and cowtits, they even had ahogao faces and literal porn comics.
What's up with this? Are these people projecting, do they hate rivals? Why do they always get mad about harmless cartoons and call everything homophobic and sexualised but then erase the very homo and fullout sexualize women by drawing that shit non-stop? I think the bias is what I dislike the most about online debates.
No.3577
>>3540I've seen this a lot. Both the hatred and their identical creations are indicative of deeper issues they have with the subject.
Somewhat understandable because a lot of us have hang-ups with the way women are sexualized but these people are really pathological about it. If I were a psychologist studying them I'd have a field day
No.3579
>>3540I just get frustrated because that level of sexualization on men is just gross and unappealing. I've brought this up before on here, but remember all of those "What if male characters were dressed like female characters?" And it's like Punished Venom Snake in a thong next to Quiet. That isn't eye candy for me, it's gross and something i feel the need to avert my eyes from. The skimpy female characters don't bother me though so maybe there is a level of socialization and normalization at play?
I wish for a world where sharp dressed men coexist with ecchi women and everyone gets what they like. Men are at their sexiest when wearing a nice necktie and smoking a cigarette as long as I get 2 cute guys to ship the show can do whatever it wants with the female characters.
Side note but Mizuki in the new GeGeGe no Kitarou movie is like the ideal man and I'm glad the JP fujoshi have been having a field day.
No.3581
>>3579based post and based mizuki x oyaji love. sexy outfits made for women are unflattering on male bodies, and most of those sexy outfits defy mortal logic when you take a closer look at them. I'm not concerned about the ecchi women and men are only concerned with their boobs and asses, but with men in those silly outfits it's distracting and not in a good way. such objectified characters are less appealing to people who aren't just interested in them as fap material.
No.3583
>>3579I like those nucarni hentai style silly outfits though. Suits are fun too but it just seems sad to not have fun variety.
I get it's stupid but if something like a male version of Nikke existed, would you really want every single character in just… a normal suit? No pic related?
No.3584
>>3583>Would you really want every single character in just… a normal suit?Maaaybe…
I do love a good suit, though as long as they are in real clothes I'm usually happy. I'll even take a modest maid dress, I just don't want like virgin killer sweaters and lingerie. I could do without the nipple piercings but Egyptian boys don't bother me because they are still men wearing clothes designed for men.
No.3585
>>3584> I just don't want like virgin killer sweaters and lingerieI am sorry but I can not be brethren. I need my qi pao, bunny suits, and plugsuits. I actually got kind of annoyed reading 86 author's note about plugsuits being for girls. Fuck Asuka and Rei, I want plug suited men!
No.3587
>>3586NIKKE has men!!!!?
Holy cow and he's cute too! Shame I'll never interact with this fanchise unless it gets an anime or something.
No.3589
>>3588>it is SO sad him and johan had to be born in the horny waifu game…Why? Its a world with sharp dressed men and ecchi women.
No.3590
>>3589Yeah, but it's also a gacha tried to suck the money from my wallet! I'm the nonna who said that line above and if it was in literally any other medium I'd give it a shot.
No.3591
>>3590I know a guy who plays it and he says it's surprisingly reasonable.
No.3596
>>3579>Men are at their sexiest when wearing a nice necktie and smoking a cigaretteBut same goes for women to me. Ecchi outfits are like visual noise to my eyes, like a filter that kills my suspension of disbelief. It's not hot either on men or women. This is why Chainsaw Man has the hottest designs, everyone is in suits and there isn't a token boob window girl.
No.3599
Just saw some Japanese fans of a fandom I'm not in discussing the fact that I guess a huge number of westerners were reposting their art in order to call them out- because the ship in the art was considered 'toxic'.
Man this shit is so embarrassing to me. I'm just a shitty American but watching other English speakers time and time again offended artists from other countries, and start fights with them (expecting the people who they're starting the fight with to speak English, even when it's not their native language!) and then acting like they're in the right for defeating the 'nasty proshippers'… it's all just so embarrassing. Like even if I wasn't a mega weeb, how can you not know it's an embarrassment to start a fight with someone and expect *them* to be the one to speak your language? After shitting on their art for hours? Honestly I saw a JPN speaker saying this was his/her major issue with western fans and I have to agree. I'm literally so embarrassed as a western weeb. I don't wanna be ""ashamed"" to be a western fan/American, but I feel like I have to because time and time again some embarrassing shit happens.
And don't get me wrong, I know JPN fans can do bad things too, but they're not so brazen about being the hero, or being morally superior. I just…
Damn…
No.3603
>>3579gotta disagree with you there, slutty skimpy outfits on men are peak. the skimpy female characters don't bother you because you are already used to it but its still shocking/uncommon when on men. suits and modest men are already the default alongside ecchi women so theres no need to wish for a world you already live in lol. I like suits and uniforms too though so maybe we can have both
No.3604
>>3603>the skimpy female characters don't bother you because you are already used to it but its still shocking/uncommon when on men.You made me think about how I find it off-putting when people put buff/hairy guys in lingerie but I'm cool with it when it's femboys and traditional bishonen types and I guess that's also a reflection of what you said here.
No.3605
>>3599this literally reads like american imparialism but within fandom spaces
No.3608
>>3603EXACTLY! to add on my tinfoil theory, the disgust might be coming from when its put on bara/moid-made content because theres this expectation that its "arousing" and its made to jack off to. but in fujo created content usually its just eye candy to enjoy and look at.
No.3614
>>3599I'm not sure if it's just me not being in any shitty overpopulated fandom, on top of not using social media that much anymore, but these kind of callouts and reactionary bullshit seem to be getting more scorned at in recent times compared to the autistic nightmare that was the year 2020. One can only hope that it diminishes further, but it sure as hell is embarrassing to see and a very valid reason for eastern artists to block and distance themselves from western teenagers.
No.3616
>>3614To me it feels like the opposite honestly. The proship/anti divide just seems to get bigger each year. Pre-2016 you could brush it off as meaningless discourse but now you have tweets with upwards of 30k likes calling someone a pedophile because they retweeted suggestive art of an underage anime character that doesn't even look like a loli/shota. I doubt eastern fandoms will ever budge on it though which is a good thing but in turn that only means we'll probably see more artists getting harassed over it. I just hope they start blocking people with "proship dni" and whatever on sight, it was pretty funny when people were scrambling to remove it from their bios because they were getting blocked by their favorite artists.
No.3617
>>3616The solution is to just not use twitter. It's mainly confined there and barely leaks onto sites like Ao3 where creative people actually congregate.
Related, but in another thread someone was talking about multishippers vs OTP does anyone have any saved screenshots of this discourse? I don't use social media and have never seen it before but that sounds even more ridiculous.
No.3620
>>3577Yeah but this is exactly what confuses me. If they were offended over sexualisation okay I get where they are coming from. But why do they draw women whose tits are three times the size of their heads, ahogao with cum on the face and all that other coomer stuff?
This is what's puzzling me. They get mad if an anime character wears a bikini but they draw shit that might as well come from an otaku artist from sadpanda.
I see the same rage over pairings, albeit to a lesser degree. They get mad about every official gay ship for being problematic but ship enemies that rape each other. I don't condemn any fetishes here, my point is that I don't understand why they lose their shit over harmless official shit but produce the most degenerated content possible.
No.3621
>>3616>people were scrambling to remove it from their bios because they were getting blocked by their favorite artists.They are incredibly stupid. I draw shipping fanart all the time and get retweeted by antis with DNI shit in their bio. Do they not scroll through my media and only casually see the few solo pics I make? Do they not view my other art as shipping? I admit I like to leave some parts open to interpretation and twitter isn't good for ship tags, so maybe they assume that the shit I draw was just friendships and rivalry, but it's funny because they are effectively antis helping me spreading my shipping shit.
No.3623
>>3621i wouldn't doubt for a second that they simply turn a blind eye because pretty art. Don't expect antis to stay true to their strong morals, it's just for show. Keep doing your shit, make sure to put a warning in bio and let the retards spread your shit.
No.3625
>>3621I have antis dni (yes cringe I know) in my bio and had this happen multiple times. I understand retweeting/liking because not everyone looks at profiles before doing so but some antis will literally follow me and reply to my tweets regularly kek. For as much as they lament about people not reading their carrds/DNIs/whatever I'm pretty sure they just outright ignore people who label themselves as proship if they like their art enough. Unless you're in a zoomer infested fandom most of the "good" artists are proshippers so they're spineless enough to betray their own morals for nice art drawn by people who they think are literal pedophiles/incest apologists/etc.
No.3631
>>3625>>3627I think it's a smokescreen. If you look at what they like you notice that they are all biased. Like 100%. Because I have never found an anti shipper that didn't ship at least one pairing that checked all the problematic boxes that they search for with other ships to condemn them.
I think that all alleged moral hate out there is just an excuse to hate on ships or series they don't like. It's bad to be honest and call a popular series or ship shit on twitter, because fans would reply or get angry. So you disguise it as moral panic. Congratulation! Now it's the dissidents that have to be afraid if they reply, since it makes them "enablers" of whatever accusation you're projecting into the stuff you don't like!
It's nothing but a manipulative method to feel validated for hating on things they don't like. This also explains all the bias.
No.3638
>>3636The kids aren't alright
No.3639
>>3637now I'm curious about the last one's no-kino-allowed list
No.3644
>>3637If any of them ever come across Retsujou, they're going to have to contend with the fact that Phoenix and Edgeworth's backstory and designs were pretty obviously influenced by one of her doujins kek.
>>3627Sorry to derail, but this is very cute art.
No.3646
>>3645The cognitive dissonance Black Butler fans who are antis have is amazing. I've even seen some of them claim that Yana isn't actually a shotacon, or she was one but grew out of it (I'd love to know how they even came to that conclusion??). They'll literally do anything to cope with the fact that the series they like are made by the weirdos they claim to hate so much.
No.3647
>>3637It's hilarious when these people put 'bara' on a pedestal and accuse BL of being gross. When I went to japan the first time I saw a gay manga written by an actual gay man in a store it was about some dude getting drugged and gangraped in the jungle.
No.3648
>>3646I've seen them claim Yana is a reformed shotacon too, somehow. Meanwhile she just added like four new shotas to her manga, and one of them is wearing a maid dress kek
No.3650
>>3647The anti fujos who praise Tagame for drawing wholesome chungus manga would have a heart attack if they saw anything he made aside from My Brother's Husband kek.
No.3656
>>3646isn't bara stuff most of the time full of rape? and shota? what are these people on lmao
No.3657
>>3656Everything anti fujos accuse BL of being (incest, rape, pedophilia, only sex, bla bla bla) is what bara is but tenfold. It takes 3 seconds to see that but they're just shit stirrers who want to dunk on women while performatively showing off about how much they totes care about gay men
No.3658
>>3656While both bara and shota lean male with very few exceptions they appeal to completely different crowds. You have the rare "muscle shota" fans, but mostly they don't interact.
>>3657Yeah honestly don't mind some bara depending on how gross/fluids are involved stuff like "My Brother's Husband" or "I'm Kinda Chubby and I'm Your Hero" but these people haven't even interacted with the genre and don't realize most of it is just hardcore porn and in my personal opinion often way more graphic and gross than anything yaoi has.
No.3661
>>3658I'm Kinda Chubby and I'm Your Hero is a BL, I've been following the artist for about a decade. She has a cute cat but lately most of her output is Good Omens and I've kind of lost interest at the moment. Gonna need that S3 announcement.
I think Ramen Wolf and Curry Tiger's artist is more what people think of, but even that's published in a mag that's BL leaning and caters to female readers. His doujin work is what you'd expect from a gay furry.
No.3662
>>3661Is it really? Lol, I guess the style just reminds me of sfw bara, maybe it's just because chubby characters are so rare in BL.
Well guess I like even less than I thought.
>Ramen Wolf and Curry TigerArt looks fine, but furry is a hard sell for me. Surprised this has a official translation, looks niche.
No.3663
>>3662you severely underestimate the amount of gay bara furries there are out there
No.3825
>>3749kawoshin sisters………owari da
No.3826
>>3825What I found out that week is that the Sebaciel community on twitter is quite open and feral about their preferences despite the anti pushback and I salute them for that. Honestly I'd love to see the ship get an undeniable canon confirmation because the sheer chaos it would cause in the western fandom would be legendary.
No.3827
>>3749Just gonna come out and say it, based on mt experience between these two options Kawoshin is the self-insert ship for gay men and sebaciel is the true iconic fujoship.
No.3828
>>3827That's an interesting take. For me Evangelion was one of the first anime I watched that wasn't a normie kid anime like pokemon so Kawoshin was my fujo awakening.