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File: 1695562081332.png (478.05 KB, 1024x765, 0_aMrKipFLO1ZsheWJ.png)ImgOps Google iqdbYandex

 No.2521[View All]

Discuss the current state of modern fandoms with the anti/pro discourse.
>What is pro/anti discourse?
Pro and anti refers to two stands in current fandom culture of what is acceptable or not to show in fiction. Anti is someone who is against anything that can be considered problematic (incest, age gaps, abuse,etc) and pro is someone who is in favour of anything problematic. But the labels can usually be something bigger, like discourse with headcanons, whitewashing, etc etc… The problematic things are just the more common ones.
>Where do these discourses usually take place?
Usually on places like Twitter, Tumblr and Ao3, but they can also be seen in other places like Discord servers, TikTok and so on.
>Are there any reads about this?
Here's a few, feel free to post more that you find!
https://note.com/orangiah/n/n437e262ce2ce (Japanese artist explaining the whole anti/pro thing)
https://www.themarysue.com/fandom-has-a-purity-culture-problem/ (general article talking of purity culture in fandom spaces)
https://www.cbr.com/cartoon-fandom-has-a-puritanism-problem/ (article about puritanism as well as a debunk in another article saying children's media has a porn problem)

Last thread
https://archive.is/9WPtF
268 posts and 80 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.5785

>>5765
Also a LOT of the people calling yaribun out for being "pedoshit" also openly enjoy Nekopara and Saya no Uta. The cognitive dissonance is unreal.

 No.5787

>>5770
I watched the OVA a while ago, but now I'm tempted to buy the series kek. Can't wait for antis to shit their pants over Baban Baban Ban Vampire too
>>5785
Noticing a pattern of something popular with fujos = bad / problematic (ex: Free!, Hetalia) whereas everything else gets a free pass. Female fans are held to higher moral standards than male fans and get policed by hypocritical busybodies within our own communities.

 No.5789

>>5770
I wonder why these people never attack moidslop like Euphoria or Kuroinu or any of the other jailbait themed hentai.

 No.5790

>>5789
They know shaming men won't work and that the men will attack back.

 No.5791

>>5789
This chan won't like to ear it, but
1) they don't care know/consume these towkrs
2) Sometimes women are their worst enemies
Like men, for all their fault, don't tend to give a shit if their friend wack to lolicon hentai. Way too many women on twitter on other and will cancel you for shipping SebCel. Even lolcow threads are filled with idiotic moral guardian anti shota ships.

 No.5795

Sometimes I wish my favorite series would be super popular for a week just to see what kind of shit antis would get mad about here, preferably about my pairing, out of sheer curiosity. There is a 10 year gap between them but one of them is 41, the other in his early 30s, so it's hard to tell whether or not this would be problematic or if they would go for something else.
>>5791
This. For many series I would also add: men produce no content. Antis are terminally online so they get mad at what they see and what they see all day are fandom related social media posts like fanart and that's basically always made by fujos.

 No.5797

>>5789
There's this weird behavior I've noticed in a lot of VN communities where some women will bend over backwards to defend VNs like Euphoria or Saya no Uta because they're 'deep' or "the story is good," but then have these moral panics over, say, Room No. 9 or sweet pool. I think in cases where they're okay with the violent male-oriented VNs but feel revulsion at the violent female-oriented VNs, it's just a way of putting other women down to make themselves look better. It's annoying as hell, though.

 No.5799

>>5787
I already saw someone crying that it's an age gap, like, no shit it's a vampire. You didn't have this problem with Draluc.

>>5797
I wonder if the images western fandom sees changes it too. I've not played any of these, but I've seen a ton of SFW Saya art over the years and not even meat corridors or monsters. Just people who draw Saya looking pretty all the time. Sweet Pool however, without ever looking it up myself, I've seen meatbabies memed all over. I've had other Nitro+CHiRAL game ends spoilt to me through jokes and it's always cannibalism, taxidermy, drug abuse and so on. People pass around the most horror themed CGs and discuss the dark elements openly.

It's almost like the people discussing BLVNs are actually playing them while the others just google a cute image and a blurb.

 No.5800

>>5789
Degenerate men tell antis to fuck off. Fandom women break over peer pressure, virtue-signalling, and moral crusades. Plus women don't usually watch fanservice haram slop so they whine about IPs popular with women.
Also like >>5795 said men aren't writing fanfiction unless it's like DeviantArt-level fetish erotica with no plot. Men aren't going to bother with the whole YIKES THAT ANIME CHARACTER IS 17 YEARS OLD! schtick
>>5797
>it's just a way of putting other women down to make themselves look better
all of this is just morally-justified bullying or ship wars and I hate it

 No.5801

>>5799
>I already saw someone crying that it's an age gap, like, no shit it's a vampire
I will never understand why people get their knickers in such a twist over age gaps between the human and the paranormal/monster lover. Why the fuck does it matter?
"Um, there's literally 500 years age difference! The powerplay! The maturity!"
Bitch, I've met people in their goddamn 80s who act like teenage pricks. You think maturity is exponential? If there's something I've learned with my ancient civilization studies is that humans have been and always will be immature retards, and no amount of longevity will ever change that. Wisdom is not automatic and neither is maturity. So what makes you think that 600 year old vampire is going to be a erudite gentleman instead of some spoiled moid?

That being said, IT'S FICTION. Holy shit stop treating it like it's real. I see this a lot in the het spaces. It's absolutely inane.

 No.5802

>>5797
Whenever I see women unironically praise Euphoria or Saya no uta for being "one of the best VNs" and "so deep" I feel like I'm watching someone whose brain simply short circuited and they had to go turbocope to deal with the experience. Honestly the only reason the stories come off as compelling and well written to them is that the torture scenes are so graphic and disturbing that anything not fully horrifying feels reliving. I went blind into Saya no uta knowing nothing about it beforehand expecting a really deep story but it was literally just a body horror run of the mill 2deep4u nukige slop storyline with pedo sex scenes in between.

 No.5803

>>5801
>Holy shit stop treating it like it's real
everything you said is on point, but it's also interesting to notice how you'll never see these people as pressed with real life issues that parallel whatever fandom discourse they're anti-ying about.
if they're so worried about age gaps, morality and whatnot, why not pour that same energy into activism, like for child brides or against porn, which is a very exploitative industry where there are many underage people (especially women as usual) being assaulted on camera?
yet they're also usually the kind to put "sex work" on a pedestal and perceive any kind of criticism against adjacent industries as misogyny and problematic, when in fact it's anything but

 No.5804

>>5797
It's because VNs have entered the realm of being an aesthetic rather than a hobby. They are like NLOGs for weeaboos.

 No.5814

I can imagine that Saya no uta is elevated cause it's written by Gen Urobuchi. Since he's a japanese writer actually known by westerners for working on something as popular as Madoka it's going to influence people's opinion on his other work too.

 No.5815

>>5814
Saya no Uta would be a pretty entertaining Lovecraftian horror piece even sex scenes included if it wasn't for the pedo shit. There's literally no reason for Saya to be a little girl, she could just as well be an adult woman but Urobuchi is obsessed with edgy lolis and it really takes me away from the story.

 No.5816

>>5814
I like Saya no Uta and genuinely think that the atmosphere is fantastic but it's getting a big boost from being an entry level VN. Back in the 00s SnU or Narcissu were THE VNs everybody recommended to start with since they are short and not bad. Even the men I know that like it said that the sex was unnecessary and should be cut out since it also forces some sentimentality in that doesn't really match to the rest of the VN.

I honestly rather blame the VN industry than the creators here. Older VNs often have those tacked on sex scenes that feel so out of place, FSN is another case. It actually works better without the porn and nobody ever thought it was well written anyway, which further convinced me that Nasu didn't really want to write it.

 No.5819

>>5816
>>5814
>>5815
Same, fantastic VN and everyone I've seen who also likes it agrees that the sex scenes are uneeded and only serve to make the game less accessible for people who'd find the content objectionable. Maaaaaybe the two rape scenes add a litle characterization to Saya and Fuminori but there are other ways to get the point across. With a lot of VNs ut feels like the publishers are trying to dangle a carrot stick to get you to buy the game for porn, when really the one sex scene 20 hours into each route just ruins the pacing. I don't know if I've played a BLVN with those issues mainly since most BL ones seem more sexually charged from the get-go and don't wait 20 hours to spring it one you.

Oh, and it should go without saying but Nekopara is trash and I have no respect for it's fans.

 No.5820

>>5791
Agreed, just look at the Johnny Depp shit most women hate other women.

 No.5821

>>5819
I do think it's an interesting story, and the sex scenes didn't bother me. Like >>5815 said, the real issue is that she looks like a little girl. Absolutely nothing would have to change if they made her look 25. I liked the VN itself, and consider it to be an effective piece of horror fiction, but I do think I would've loved it even more if they'd made her look older.

 No.5822

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>>5821
What about flipping the genders?

 No.5823

>>5822
kino. we need a genderswap saya no uta patch STAT

 No.5824

>>5822
At least he looks like a young adult here. Cute character design.

 No.5825

>>5823
That's kinda just sweet pool kek, shame that the only good love interest in SP (Makoto) only has a side route and the other two are shit tier LIs.
I have no idea why Kabura decided to make the Nano clone the main love interest, but he sucks just as hard as Nano.

 No.5826

>>5825
Hey now Zen'ya was funny as fuck, he deserved to get fucked by that old man

 No.5827

>>5826
I liked him with the old man, didn't like him with Youji.

 No.5829

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>>5827
Which one?

 No.5833

>>5829
Ass baby adoptive papa one, not stinky bio one.

 No.5834

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>>5797
>where some women will bend over backwards to defend VNs like Euphoria or Saya no Uta because they're 'deep' or "the story is good," but then have these moral panics over, say, Room No. 9 or sweet pool.
Has this happened? Saya no Uta I could understand but Euphoria? I think some people legitimately have not actually gone through Euphoria or completely skipped all the shitfest. Even without the shit, you still have generic nukige nonsense in it. Uta at least is N+ which means it's trying to be a decent story.

>>5826
>>5827
They were truly the best thing out of the game by far. I got so invested in Kitani that even though I loved Youji, I just wanted him and Zenya to be happy which wouldn't happen at all
They weren't alike father and son but it makes me wish N+C wouldn't pussy out and made an actual dadson route.

 No.5835

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>>5834
>an actual dadson route
Crazy to me that they haven't, they've done much more taboo stuff and keep flirting with the age gap fatherly idea
On that note, what's up with Virus and Trip supposedly "not being related"? The fact that it's one of the first things they tell you makes me wonder if Kabura Fuchii is simply not into incest enough to commit, or if illustrated incest is where the company draws the line (funny if true)

 No.5874

>>5834
>Has this happened? Saya no Uta I could understand but Euphoria?
Yes, unfortunately lmao. It's embarrassing behavior. I can probably find more examples, if you'd like, but I remember watching this video when it came out and feeling so much secondhand embarrassment. It's never left my head since because she not only chose to defend Euphoria, but chose to defend the shitty anime adaptation, which is even worse.

 No.5877

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>>5835
My impression is that ViTri not being related isn’t to avoid incest (which wouldn’t matter because they’re not sexually involved with each other + Ren as a LI being both Aoba’s other personality and inside his twin brother is incestious already), their weird codependent/trauma bonded relationship is a point of characterization for them. Trip kind of bonded to an older Virus when he was a kid and as a result now follows him around everywhere and defers to his authority (he’s the tough guy back up to Virus’ smart talker schemer). Virus just kind of lets him be weirdly close because he’s helpful in that regard so it’s worth the trade off. They seem set in their ways of doing things and their relationship and necessity of staying together stays like this as a result. The weird not lovers, siblings or even friends thing is the appeal factor, they almost come off as one character split into two in the “where does Virus end and Trip begin?” sort of way and there’s a lot to enjoy in their complimentary yet slightly opposed dynamic. That's my take on it at least, and what I remember from DMMD+Re:C

 No.5878

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>>5874
Ive been maladaptive day dreaming about a male version of Euphoria for a while. I have detailed recounts of how I want each torture room to go and how each ending will work. Room No 9 is not enough, and my biggest disappointment was the lack of choice in the ryona routes.

 No.5882

>>5878
>I have detailed recounts of how I want each torture room to go and how each ending will work.
If you ever feel like posting it, even just a short version, feel free to do so. I would love to read it, even as someone who's only semi-aware of Euphoria's plot. Like you said, RN9 felt tame compared to the messed up stuff I've read about ClockUp VNs so I wonder how a BL Euphoria would go.

 No.5883

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>>5882
Ah I shouldve elaborated it was initially just a genderswap euphoria with a heroine as the protagonist instead, however I can likely cobble up a BL version that isnt too different. Though I'd probably envision a different plot entirely that has the extreme ryona/torture aspects of Euphoria but not the story; the gender role dynamics in Euphoria is very relevant to the VN's lore so I'm not sure if it would execute the same if everyone was male (Key/Keyholes being divided by sex for example)

 No.5884

>>5878
>>5883
Curious about this: would you keep the same plot twists and such? I think one of the heroines is the MC's daughter or something, which would be harder to do in a BL game where pregnancy is not as much of a concern lol. I think a modified version of RN9 with an extended cast (maybe with focus on all of the rooms) could be neat. I think RN9 was really interesting for what it was, but having more choices and characters would've also been neat.

 No.5885

>>5877
Oh, that makes a lot of sense! To be honest, I've still put off reading Re:C (and I forgot Aoba's twin even existed lol, flaky memory of DMMD) so your explanation of the dynamic is really helpful, thank you!

 No.5886

>>5884
Since the game deals with cloning shenanigans, DNA altercation, and advanced technology it wouldn't be too far fetched to have mpreg plotline. Or it could follow what the original game intended and have MC impregnate an unnamed female cult member that gives birth to male!Rinne.
I wont elaborate too much on my thoughts of a genderbent euphoria since its NL and I dont think this is the appropriate thread to discuss non-BL topics, but I believe a BL version of Euphoria would work as a modified version of RN9 with more characters and options (which makes me frustrated in hindsight that clockup didnt have the resources to create a daichi route where you pick the ryona options whereas Euphoria got to have multiple cgs for multiple characters and different endings/routes.)

 No.5887

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>>5885
You're welcome, nonnie! I hope you give Re:Connect a try soon, it ties up loose ends pretty well and gives addition characterization to the boys that makes them a lot more solid imo (like I explained with ViTri also Mink is a lot better in Re:C and I understand where his fans are coming from now)

 No.5891

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>>5886
>>5884
>>5883
>>5882
>>5878
As appealing as a bl version of Euphoria would be (and even with eh presence on gender I feel as if a bl version would work since the main focus of the vn is dominance/degradation which I think would be arguably a lot more effective with a male/male paring with aspects like emasculation at play) I think a bl version of Fraternite would be a lot more appealing with its grounded setting and emphasis on cults and gradual mental decline of the characters

 No.5897

>>5877
>Ren as a LI being both Aoba’s other personality and inside his twin brother is incestious already
I always thought it was a cop-out that Aoba's brother never had a real route tbh. He was pretty.

 No.6308

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Found on Reddit of all places. Comments from a Sebaciel YouTube video, 2015 vs 2024.
https://www.reddit.com/r/proshipping/comments/1hapfde/comments_on_a_sebaciel_video_2015_vs_2024/

 No.6310

>>6308
We used to be a proper country…

 No.6311

>>6308
>last semblance of normalcy in fandom was 8 years ago
It's over.

 No.6312

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>>6308
>Its a big fat rumor that blavk butler was supposed to be a yaoi. it was NOT SUPPOSED TO BE YAOI. Yana is a full grown adult blahblahblah
KEK

 No.6313

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I have to vent here. I'm in some fandoms where there's the trope of a talking pet/animal with human intelligence who can transform into a human. All of the Japanese fans ship the characters together like normal and don't give a shit. English spaces are filled with people saying it's LITERALLY bestiality and will remove ship artwork. They will also say it's extremely unethical to ship an owner with a pet and say it's like shipping a slave with a slave owner. Am I going crazy?? I don't even understand with depicting could do any harm within their own logic because it's not like this could ever happen in real life.

 No.6314

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>>6313
my theory is that antis dislike something depicted by the ship that is totally unrelated to the reason why they say they are against it. to put it shortly, they come up with moral arguments, but the the ship makes them uncomfortable for other, way more personal reasons.
these reasons can be as simple as liking another ship in the franchise, or knowing someone they dislike who likes the ship, or the ship highlights a specific insecurity they have regarding their own appearance/personality/life in general etc.

saying "i hate this because it's morally wrong!" sounds way better than saying "i hate this because of dumb personal reasons!", so they run with it. they get brownie points for being on the right side of moral panic history, and can also pull more people on their hate train against everything they dislike.
it's the only explanation for how mental and hypocritical these people sound really

 No.6315

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>>6308
>Yana is a full grown adult and no smart person will… (allow SebCiel to happen, I assume?)

Lmfao from what I remember her editor and publishers had to talk her down from making SebCiel official. Also who's gonna tell them she got her start drawing shota doujins kek, she's a shotacon through and through. Why do these people even bother being fans if the source material/author is so obviously "problematic" from the get-go?

 No.6316

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>>6315
>Why do these people even bother being fans if the source material/author is so obviously "problematic" from the get-go?
that's what i don' get. yana is obviously into shota and she has drawn explicit one-shots of characters suspiciously similar to sebaciel. picrel is basically them.
besides, how the hell does an anti read the corset scene and not just drop the manga on the spot is beyond me. its obvious yana likes them that way.

 No.6317

>>6316
They're in full cope claiming she renounced her shotacon ways or something.

 No.6318

>>6308
The way people try to erase history and act like none of this happened and if it did it was sone sort of extremist minority is nuts, things used to be normal, fantasy was fantasy and it was fun. I feel old, the new generation really flipped onto a direction I can't understand.



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