No.2521[View All]
Discuss the current state of modern fandoms with the anti/pro discourse.
>What is pro/anti discourse? Pro and anti refers to two stands in current fandom culture of what is acceptable or not to show in fiction. Anti is someone who is against anything that can be considered problematic (incest, age gaps, abuse,etc) and pro is someone who is in favour of anything problematic. But the labels can usually be something bigger, like discourse with headcanons, whitewashing, etc etc… The problematic things are just the more common ones.
>Where do these discourses usually take place?Usually on places like Twitter, Tumblr and Ao3, but they can also be seen in other places like Discord servers, TikTok and so on.
>Are there any reads about this?Here's a few, feel free to post more that you find!
https://note.com/orangiah/n/n437e262ce2ce (Japanese artist explaining the whole anti/pro thing)
https://www.themarysue.com/fandom-has-a-purity-culture-problem/ (general article talking of purity culture in fandom spaces)
https://www.cbr.com/cartoon-fandom-has-a-puritanism-problem/ (article about puritanism as well as a debunk in another article saying children's media has a porn problem)
Last thread
https://archive.is/9WPtF No.5800
>>5789Degenerate men tell antis to fuck off. Fandom women break over peer pressure, virtue-signalling, and moral crusades. Plus women don't usually watch fanservice haram slop so they whine about IPs popular with women.
Also like
>>5795 said men aren't writing fanfiction unless it's like DeviantArt-level fetish erotica with no plot. Men aren't going to bother with the whole YIKES THAT ANIME CHARACTER IS 17 YEARS OLD! schtick
>>5797>it's just a way of putting other women down to make themselves look betterall of this is just morally-justified bullying or ship wars and I hate it
No.5801
>>5799>I already saw someone crying that it's an age gap, like, no shit it's a vampireI will never understand why people get their knickers in such a twist over age gaps between the human and the paranormal/monster lover. Why the fuck does it matter?
"Um, there's literally 500 years age difference! The powerplay! The maturity!"
Bitch, I've met people in their goddamn 80s who act like teenage pricks. You think maturity is exponential? If there's something I've learned with my ancient civilization studies is that humans have been and always will be immature retards, and no amount of longevity will ever change that. Wisdom is not automatic and neither is maturity. So what makes you think that 600 year old vampire is going to be a erudite gentleman instead of some spoiled moid?
That being said, IT'S FICTION. Holy shit stop treating it like it's real. I see this a lot in the het spaces. It's absolutely inane.
No.5802
>>5797Whenever I see women unironically praise Euphoria or Saya no uta for being "one of the best VNs" and "so deep" I feel like I'm watching someone whose brain simply short circuited and they had to go turbocope to deal with the experience. Honestly the only reason the stories come off as compelling and well written to them is that the torture scenes are so graphic and disturbing that anything not fully horrifying feels reliving. I went blind into Saya no uta knowing nothing about it beforehand expecting a really deep story but it was literally just a body horror run of the mill 2deep4u nukige slop storyline with pedo sex scenes in between.
No.5803
>>5801>Holy shit stop treating it like it's realeverything you said is on point, but it's also interesting to notice how you'll never see these people as pressed with real life issues that parallel whatever fandom discourse they're anti-ying about.
if they're so worried about age gaps, morality and whatnot, why not pour that same energy into activism, like for child brides or against porn, which is a very exploitative industry where there are many underage people (especially women as usual) being assaulted on camera?
yet they're also usually the kind to put "sex work" on a pedestal and perceive any kind of criticism against adjacent industries as misogyny and problematic, when in fact it's anything but
No.5804
>>5797It's because VNs have entered the realm of being an aesthetic rather than a hobby. They are like NLOGs for weeaboos.
No.5814
I can imagine that Saya no uta is elevated cause it's written by Gen Urobuchi. Since he's a japanese writer actually known by westerners for working on something as popular as Madoka it's going to influence people's opinion on his other work too.
No.5815
>>5814Saya no Uta would be a pretty entertaining Lovecraftian horror piece even sex scenes included if it wasn't for the pedo shit. There's literally no reason for Saya to be a little girl, she could just as well be an adult woman but Urobuchi is obsessed with edgy lolis and it really takes me away from the story.
No.5816
>>5814I like Saya no Uta and genuinely think that the atmosphere is fantastic but it's getting a big boost from being an entry level VN. Back in the 00s SnU or Narcissu were THE VNs everybody recommended to start with since they are short and not bad. Even the men I know that like it said that the sex was unnecessary and should be cut out since it also forces some sentimentality in that doesn't really match to the rest of the VN.
I honestly rather blame the VN industry than the creators here. Older VNs often have those tacked on sex scenes that feel so out of place, FSN is another case. It actually works better without the porn and nobody ever thought it was well written anyway, which further convinced me that Nasu didn't really want to write it.
No.5819
>>5816>>5814>>5815Same, fantastic VN and everyone I've seen who also likes it agrees that the sex scenes are uneeded and only serve to make the game less accessible for people who'd find the content objectionable. Maaaaaybe the
two rape scenes add a litle characterization to Saya and Fuminori but there are other ways to get the point across. With a lot of VNs ut feels like the publishers are trying to dangle a carrot stick to get you to buy the game for porn, when really the one sex scene 20 hours into each route just ruins the pacing. I don't know if I've played a BLVN with those issues mainly since most BL ones seem more sexually charged from the get-go and don't wait 20 hours to spring it one you.
Oh, and it should go without saying but Nekopara is trash and I have no respect for it's fans.
No.5820
>>5791Agreed, just look at the Johnny Depp shit most women hate other women.
No.5821
>>5819I do think it's an interesting story, and the sex scenes didn't bother me. Like
>>5815 said, the real issue is that she looks like a little girl. Absolutely nothing would have to change if they made her look 25. I liked the VN itself, and consider it to be an effective piece of horror fiction, but I do think I would've loved it even more if they'd made her look older.
No.5823
>>5822kino. we need a genderswap saya no uta patch STAT
No.5824
>>5822At least he looks like a young adult here. Cute character design.
No.5825
>>5823That's kinda just sweet pool kek, shame that the only good love interest in SP (Makoto) only has a side route and the other two are shit tier LIs.
I have no idea why Kabura decided to make the Nano clone the main love interest, but he sucks just as hard as Nano.
No.5826
>>5825Hey now Zen'ya was funny as fuck, he deserved to get fucked by that old man
No.5827
>>5826I liked him with the old man, didn't like him with Youji.
No.5833
>>5829Ass baby adoptive papa one, not stinky bio one.
No.5834
>>5797>where some women will bend over backwards to defend VNs like Euphoria or Saya no Uta because they're 'deep' or "the story is good," but then have these moral panics over, say, Room No. 9 or sweet pool. Has this happened? Saya no Uta I could understand but Euphoria? I think some people legitimately have not actually gone through Euphoria or completely skipped all the shitfest. Even without the shit, you still have generic nukige nonsense in it. Uta at least is N+ which means it's trying to be a decent story.
>>5826>>5827They were truly the best thing out of the game by far. I got so invested in Kitani that even though I loved Youji, I just wanted him and Zenya to be happy
which wouldn't happen at allThey weren't alike father and son but it makes me wish N+C wouldn't pussy out and made an actual dadson route.
No.5835
>>5834>an actual dadson routeCrazy to me that they haven't, they've done much more taboo stuff and keep flirting with the age gap fatherly idea
On that note, what's up with Virus and Trip supposedly "not being related"? The fact that it's one of the first things they tell you makes me wonder if Kabura Fuchii is simply not into incest enough to commit, or if illustrated incest is where the company draws the line (funny if true)
No.5882
>>5878>I have detailed recounts of how I want each torture room to go and how each ending will work.If you ever feel like posting it, even just a short version, feel free to do so. I would love to read it, even as someone who's only semi-aware of Euphoria's plot. Like you said, RN9 felt tame compared to the messed up stuff I've read about ClockUp VNs so I wonder how a BL Euphoria would go.
No.5884
>>5878>>5883Curious about this: would you keep the same plot twists and such? I think one of the heroines is
the MC's daughter or something, which would be harder to do in a BL game where pregnancy is not as much of a concern lol. I think a modified version of RN9 with an extended cast (maybe with focus on all of the rooms) could be neat. I think RN9 was really interesting for what it was, but having more choices and characters would've also been neat.
No.5885
>>5877Oh, that makes a lot of sense! To be honest, I've still put off reading Re:C (and I forgot Aoba's twin even existed lol, flaky memory of DMMD) so your explanation of the dynamic is really helpful, thank you!
No.5886
>>5884Since the game deals with
cloning shenanigans, DNA altercation, and advanced technology it wouldn't be too far fetched to have mpreg plotline. Or it could follow what the original game intended
and have MC impregnate an unnamed female cult member that gives birth to male!Rinne.
I wont elaborate too much on my thoughts of a genderbent euphoria since its NL and I dont think this is the appropriate thread to discuss non-BL topics, but I believe a BL version of Euphoria would work as a modified version of RN9 with more characters and options (which makes me frustrated in hindsight that clockup didnt have the resources to create a daichi route where you pick the ryona options whereas Euphoria got to have multiple cgs for multiple characters and different endings/routes.)
No.5897
>>5877>Ren as a LI being both Aoba’s other personality and inside his twin brother is incestious alreadyI always thought it was a cop-out that Aoba's brother never had a real route tbh. He was pretty.
No.6310
>>6308We used to be a proper country…
No.6311
>>6308>last semblance of normalcy in fandom was 8 years agoIt's over.
No.6314
>>6313my theory is that antis dislike something depicted by the ship that is totally unrelated to the reason why they say they are against it. to put it shortly, they come up with moral arguments, but the the ship makes them uncomfortable for other, way more personal reasons.
these reasons can be as simple as liking another ship in the franchise, or knowing someone they dislike who likes the ship, or the ship highlights a specific insecurity they have regarding their own appearance/personality/life in general etc.
saying "i hate this because it's morally wrong!" sounds way better than saying "i hate this because of dumb personal reasons!", so they run with it. they get brownie points for being on the right side of moral panic history, and can also pull more people on their hate train against everything they dislike.
it's the only explanation for how mental and hypocritical these people sound really
No.6316
>>6315>Why do these people even bother being fans if the source material/author is so obviously "problematic" from the get-go?that's what i don' get. yana is obviously into shota and she has drawn explicit one-shots of characters suspiciously similar to sebaciel. picrel is basically them.
besides, how the hell does an anti read the corset scene and not just drop the manga on the spot is beyond me. its obvious yana likes them that way.
No.6317
>>6316They're in full cope claiming she renounced her shotacon ways or something.
No.6318
>>6308The way people try to erase history and act like none of this happened and if it did it was sone sort of extremist minority is nuts, things used to be normal, fantasy was fantasy and it was fun. I feel old, the new generation really flipped onto a direction I can't understand.
No.6805
Antiship has become weirdly prominent in the hetalia fandom and it confuses me. You would think hetalia on its own would be too problematic for these people considering people saw it as racist just a few years ago but i guess its made a comeback.
I understand not liking direct incest like AmeCan or itacest but i see people sperging about how ships like spamano and UsUk are literally pedoincest and you arent allowed to ship them and i really dont see how you can even enjoy the show at that point. France spends half of his scenes sexually harassing other characters, Spamano is the most popular ship for both spain and romano and the show has no issues with it, not to mention you are in the country yaoi fanbase…i don’t get it.
I feel like a show like this should be free from annoying morality discourse. No issue with disliking ships but hearing people cry about “comship” in discussion of a show about shipping nations is odd.
No.6809
>>6805Strangely enough while anti shit is way more prevalent in fandoms of sugary shit every series will get them as long as the western fandom is just big enough.
The MC of my favorite series is/was literally a genociding dictator, half of the cast are war criminals and like half of the antagoists that people ship at least fascists and YET you have antis bitching about fans that ship space Hitler with space Himmler because Hitler was mean to Himmler once which makes it abusive and the fans predators or something.
No.6810
>>6809Are you a star wars fan or a gundam fan? Lol
No.6815
>>6805Hetalia having antis is proof our fujogod has abandoned us and we need to smex or faves again and glomp other shippers like it was mandated in the fujo sacred texts
No.6819
>>6817It's funny, when I read war criminal I knew, as a TF fan, you meant TF.
Skybound run makes it obvious but unless you read the comics, the cartoons don't really put any context to the insanity of the entire crew on either side. I mean, there's a whole episode of Arcee going into shock as she has Cliffjumper PTSD and Shockwave's outright terrifying. But the show downplays a lot of how actually awful the Decepticons are. The Autobots are far from innocent themselves but no one sees Bee as someone so efficient at his job that the leader of the enemy faction personally fucked him up to make a point.
I watched the Opbee discourse go down on twitter and it's insane to me how anyone would view Bee, especially Prime Bee as OP's son. Animated had the Human Error episodes which made him a kid, for some reason, but aside from that- I can't think of any continuity in which he's specifically supposed to be a child. Much less seeing OP as a parent since their species don't have concepts like mom or dad.
Starscream calls the scaplets he creates his children in cyberverse but that's all I can think of.
No.6820
>>6819This is so funny to me. Well, maybe it's because the comics (especially IDW) explicitly thematize ideologies, war crimes and the trauma the crimes have caused. The political speeches make the rest very obvious. Or the inability of the criminals to resocialize after the war has ended. In MtmtE you even have Megatron turning into the protag. I actually like it that someone had the guts to do redeem the villain and make you sympathize with him while simultaneously clarifying that he was indeed a fascist and genocider. Despite being an MC he even gets
executed for it at the very end, so it's not like his crimes were forgiven. It's crazy seeing some fans calling ships dangerous for a series that makes clear that almost everybody is fucked up beyond belief and if they weren't psychos (from the start) then the war eventually broke them and made them mentally ill anyway.
The best I have seen were discourses about Tarn/Overlord shipping. Not sure if you read it, but those two are easily some of the worst (albeit sexy) characters that exist. They are both mass murdering sadists and both are yandere homo for the same person (Megatron), of course are fans shipping them!
>Bee as OP's sonI hate hate that stuff as well and it happens in a lot of series. Everytime two adults have some vaguely brotherly- or mentor/protegee-like interaction someone out there headcanons them as brothers, respectively father and son and condemns shipping because of incest.