No.3664[View All]
The sentence "If you'd replace one or two of the main leads with women, nothing changes" made me wonder if Yoai or Bl can benefit from a bit of realism. I'm on camp neutral, personally. I don't mind some reality in my m/m smut, but one of the reasons I like BL and Joseimuke is the decoupling expectations.
Men in these stories are borne under an idealized version women yearned for but never got because society at large forces men to be something they're not, and they all believe it. Buying into lies has caused men to double down on their misogyny over the years, harming both women, children, and themselves. And when they do reach that truth, they either blot it out or troon it out. Men can never learn, so I've relegated myself to BL, as stupid as it sounds. I feel I have the most control when reality proves disappointing.
(btw, is this best place to post? /ot/ seemed promising but I choose /ffs/ instead. Made the most sense and honestly, I just wanna screech about pet theories. Please don't clown on me lol)
90 posts and 22 image replies omitted. Click reply to view. No.8829
>>8828It's silly but thank god the guys in the video work out and aren't fat fucks or I would have thrown up. Speaking of which these same gay men wouldn't stop whining about how some guys on grindr have "masc4masc no fat no twink no asian no black" in their bio and endlessly arguing over whether tops should always suck dick or not, so maybe they should stfu about fetishization and work on their own issues first.
No.8830
>>8828Tacky masculinity (fat hairy leather bikers) = Mommy issues
Tacky femininity (flamboyant beauty guru divas) = Daddy issues
Your video = Issues with both
Otherwise they'll still have both masculine and feminine qualities (which is good), but not to a toxic extent
No.8831
>>8828yeehaw
>>8829I can always tell when somebody is chronically online when they don't even know all they have to do is peep grindr for completely unfiltered thoughts of the average gay men.
No.8832
>>8828The masculinity gay men display is behaviors that are more common in men at their core (confidence, hypersexuality / sexual aggression, etc). The femininity is more aesthetic or superficial based on their sexual orientation. Compare how TIFs are shy, neurotic, complain about hookups and dick pics, want someone to understand their feelings, etc.
Also gay men are drawn to "classic" interior-design type aesthetics or well-groomed but normal male clothes (see euro gays) or campy tacky stuff like picrel (Village People, leather, hairy, muscular, leather cowboy, daddy, etc). TIFs like stuff that's so cutesy and girly. It's different than what even the most flamboyant twinky gays would like irl but hard to explain. I think it's the sheer cutesy-ness of it.
Why would you really want to join the gay community as a straight women unless you are really naive anyways? All TIFs have to be sheltered or unaware of how gay men really are. The gay community is so sexually aggressive when it comes to hookups and it's a very lonely existence. Lots of gays don't ever settle down or find a partner, there's rampant STDs and drug abuse, most people hooking up just want sex and your body, blowing out your asshole, etc. It's a shallow world.
Most TIFs would be happier accepting being a straight woman and appreciating 2D men in peace. Most are so straight it hurts and even try to get pregnant. It's obvious they want a man who accepts them and understands their feelings. Just try to find a nice guy and settle down and read yaoi in a nice with kids if that's what you want.
No.8835
>>8830 But that's all gay men
>>8832 Sexually I agree that it is male sexuality taken to the most degen extreme, but I do think their 'masculinity' is just as fake as their 'femininity'. Both are not authentic, but a form of extreme cosplay, very similar to drag, but with their whole body.
No.8847
>>8807All of those guys have gay face and I can sense the gayness radiating off of them. Very feminine indeed, I like masculinity in men
No.8941
>>8935Unrelated but I always wondered why furshit caught on with gay and straight moids but most women I know wants nothing to do with it?
No.8942
>>8941My maybe unpopular opinion is that kemono furries (or stuff like Sylvanian Families, Pokemon, Moomin, etc) look cute if they aren't associated with degeneracy. I would try a BL written by an actual woman with BISHOUNEN kemono kek. Western furries and male fetishes are disgusting though
No.8943
>>8941My armchair analysis is that AMAB sexual proclivities awaken earlier and therefore they have a soft spot (or hard spot heh) for the cartoon animals of their childhoods at a higher rate than AFABs. I also think this is why that in general men tend to have more paraphilias than women.
>>8942I like jp anthro art but there's something about the western anthro vibe that is extremely unappealing unless it's just meant to be cute.
No.8944
>>8935>fartingI'm sorry what?
No.8946
>>8944When you are getting fucked in a hole the air getting pushed around down there can sometimes make a farting noise haha
No.8950
>>8945Thank you for these recs, I'll give Nagabe's works a shot! I also like Beastars lmao its very gay indeed
>>8947wtf
No.8971
>>8954>I would argue that straight/lesbian and bisexual women have aesthetic preferences that are closer to straight men than gay males.Do explain nonna?
No.8977
>>8971NTA but whenever you see fanart of male characters in fetish wear in commonly fetishized costumes by straight men like maid outfits, playboy bunnies, nuns, kemonomimi ears etc by women rather than leather stuff, jockstraps and beefy furries like it is in artwork for gay men.
This isn't even getting into how women and men's art overlaps pretty heavily moe wise while bara characters might as well be from a different universe.
>>8976The whole flashy thing is also a good point. Just look at dolls designed by gay men (most of the major playline fashion dolls like bratz) compared to the more down to earth ones by women (ie: blythe) kek.
No.8979
>>8976>some people like it but most people don't.It seems to me that most gay men don't like it either
Flamboyant characters are always the funny ones that are more of a joke by just existing, whether it's in BL by a woman or something meant to be "queer art" by a man
Even the amount of gay stuff that fixates on "straight to gay" or "straight passing" men or whatever is not unlike BL
No.8981
>>8977>maid outfitsNot my thing but Everything else is pretty spot on, with the down-to-earth vibes women have compared to men. I’m not sure how to explain it, but it seems like the male gaze leans toward overindulgence rather than mild idealization or romanticization.
No.8984
>>8979Wow I love this art style, what manga is this from? It won't come up when I reverse image search it
No.8996
>>8976one of the biggest problems when women try to write "realistic" gay men is that realism just means writing straight male characters who have sex with each other rather than writing real gay men, so it's mostly pointless
No.9017
>>9016There’s some josei semes like this
No.9018
>>9016If they were funny instead of annoying/bratty. Tough rope to walk as a twink.
No.9020
>>9016With all these guys wearing puffer jackers and him wearing a tiny skirt and a crop top I know it's a comedy BL, so I'd read it.
No.9021
>>9016Yes and would also smash irl, despite the 3DPD.
No.9024
>>9016yes these are better than the ugly bara fatties that always assault my eyes on mrmm
No.9025
>>9016Maybe the writing would have to be good though, I don't really like characters who behave like sluts.
No.9026
>>9016No. It's not what I look for/like in BL.
No.9028
>>9025but that's what gay men are like irl?
No.9029
>>9028Sure, but what has that to do with BL?
No.9071
>>9025>I don't really like characters who behave like slutsYour loss. I personally like it with a dash of settling down after years of fucking.
No.9075
>>9028gay men irl are disgusting. They are all just sick of the mind. No gay man is happy in reality, straight men are only worth it when they are not "oh yes I love all women" and just "I hate women but I love my wife" and eventually evolve to "I don't hate women and I'm a loyal husband"
men sometimes just as women are prone to hivemind thinking.
Gay men are always sick. This is why BL is made by women, becasuse women sometimes feel disgusting.
Making porn with a woman feels disgusting, because it's what ou are always seeing, you always see women being abused or forced into stuff.
Seeing a man in the place people would put you in makes it more like an observer from your part.
BL will never portray real gay men.
And when it does, it just will show off how sick they are.
No.9078
>>9075Okay, you might need to chill a bit lol.
No.9087
>>9078I get what she's saying in part, the "men" in BL are closer to straight/bisexual women than they are to gay/bisexual men.
No.9088
>>9087Nta but I don't think anime men act like bisexual women either, anime characters simply act like anime characters and I camt really see much difference between bl anime men and non bl anime men, other than bl men having sex more.
No.9089
>>9088Same, people calling yaoi "lesbians with two men" or whatever the fuck is one of my biggest pet peevs. It also completely ignroes the fact that there is a wide range of dynamics and character types in shipping and BL.
No.9090
>>9089Some people just want to argue for the sake of arguing and getting more and more creative at it. While there are some glaring examples of men acting like women would in shoujo, even that is an example of how anime characters don't act like normal people in the slightest.
People who are chronically online or watch shows as if their livelihood depended on it have their perspectives skewed for the worse.
No.9091
>>9088One thing I don't see brought up very often is how, even if we assume the argument that the men in BL are written like women is true, their maleness can still affect the plot in other ways. For example, if a story is set during the Victorian Era, the roles the characters would take in that society, as well as how other characters would react to them, would be different from female characters. If an author wrote a story set in a historical time period about two men falling in love, and then wrote another story set in that same time period about two women with the exact same personalities falling in love, the stories would be fundamentally different. That's not to say one would be inherently better than the other, but the entire plot structure would have to change.
>anime characters simply act like anime charactersThis is the correct answer. It's also funny how people make the "omg they're literally women" argument, but I never see anyone say the waifus in scroteshit harem anime written by men are just male characters who look female. That seems like a double standard. People are able to recognize that those types of characters act unlike a real human, so I don't see why BL is so different.
No.9094
>>9091>>9089You're missing the point, it's not their dynamic or the way they have sex, it's just plain acting and behaving. It's closer to straight/bi women than gay men
No.9095
My take is that BL characters or fanon depictions of characters in fanfiction focus on their internal feelings too much for them to act like realistic (gay) men. It's better for 2D to be this way though. There is a lot of dynamics and characters types though, so I wouldn't say all of them act like women even if they aren't men. It's more of a 2D-3D difference than a male-female gap imo.
No.9101
>>9095>BL characters or fanon depictions of characters in fanfiction focus on their internal feelings too much for them to act like realistic (gay) men.Maybe this is a modern era problem, because I just think back to all the historical highly detailed letters explaining every last detail of the sender's feelings that both men and women used to send, and times in history when sensitive/brooding/poetic men were hot shit. Although I agree that even then, the specific fanfic way that female writers tend to do it, like making old men act like blushing virgins, is still out of place.
No.9109
>>3664Honestly, I don't think men in BL can be compared to either irl women or irl gay men, they're like their own thing imo.
I do have one pet peeve when it comes to japanese BL though, and it's when they try to keep the seme essentially
straight if you ignore his attraction to the uke. Things like him only having ex-gfs, trying to make the uke jealous by interacting with female characters, comparing the uke to a woman during sex, etc. I think most people will know what I mean. It wouldn't hurt to have a bit more realism when it comes to this in particular and I genuinely don't understand why some authors do it in the first place.
No.9117
>>9095Reminds me that people have said Conclave is written "in a female style" because the MC's internal mental state is constantly described throughout, and all the old Catholic men touch hands and kiss foreheads. It's easier to ship and be silly over, but it's not like the author suddenly transitioned.
No.9175
>>9109>comparing the uke to a woman during sexfuck i hate too, shit like "you have hips like a woman" or "you moan like a woman" it just ruins it for me