No.4140
>>4130>>4137I guess the antis who aren't on team "They have a father and son dynamic" instead take the tentacle scene at face value to say Sebastian doesn't care about him.
No.4143
>>4140>They have a father and son dynamicyou hit the nail on the head nona. i find this new rhetoric of dadbastian very stupid and an obvious cope
>take the tentacle scene at face valueyeah this too. to me it has always been pretty obvious that the scene was just sebastian snapping ciel out of his trauma response state, iirc he later explicitly states he wasn't actually going to eat his soul. it's beyond me how people think it's proof he does not care, but i guess antis aren't exactly smart
No.4144
i hate how the new gen 'fandom' mischaracterizes sebastian.
to add to the antis interpretation of sebastian and ciel's relationship, it's so weird how they claim that sebastian is a parental figure to ciel.
sebastian does not act like a father to ciel, just what. if your dad acts like sebastian call the cops.
somehow, the dadbastian meme manages to co-exist with the other part of the fandom who says sebastian is unable to feel anything at all. antis have been stuck at the "sebastian does not care about ciel" stage for years now.
sebastian has changed since the start of the series (as it's normal for characters to do) showing more emotion and empathy towards ciel and other characters, too. it's like antis can't conceptualize that it's possible for a character to evolve, and since sebastian was shown to be detached and self-serving at the start, then it means he will never be anything more than that. nuance completely flies over these people's head.
but imo, the worst of them all is people who say sebastian is a predator (lmao). they paint him like he's the actual antagonist of the series and ciel is his poor victim who is constantly abused and ruined by his evil influence.
i mean, hot, and true to an extent, but they forget that sebastian is the titular main character who is ciel's saviour and is helping him against the real villains. he takes very good care of ciel going way beyond his contract duties, and even has his own twisted semblance of morality
No.4146
>>4144 (forgive my dissertation in yaoi ethics,)
You've hit the mark in so many ways with your post. What I love about BB is how nuanced the storytelling and characterization are. It's hard for me to imagine that people actually read it and picked the two extremes to defend. It's so silly, they most certainly don't have a paternal relationship, and making Sebastian seem like a callous monster is so blind, too. Literally it is just a cope to protect their fragile egos, if the fucking dadbastian claim falls through at least they can shrug and be, "welp, he was a demon anyways."
What I like is the push and pull of their relationship. Firstly, I saw them as business partners who have a sick-desperate kind of reliance on each other. I love that they need each other, but must remain guarded to an extent. Seeing how they have to struggle with their boundaries and trust, mhua! Fucking chefs kiss. Truly a delicious cherry on the dark, gothic cake. Throughout the series, seeing how their relationship developed and grew has been nice. BOTA does this so well. I also love seeing how Sebastian has personally grown. And then we got to see how he takes in what other characters teach him, like in the BOTC, it was honestly a surprise to see him learn from Agni and Soma, and it truly still shows within the witch arc. The moment he saw that Ciel was incapacitated, he could have taken Ciel’s soul right then and there. He didn’t have to return him to the castle, ask for Sullivan’s help, or even wait as long as he did before he activated the tentacle vore lol. He has never shown another human this kind of mercy.
What bothers me the most is how both sides have such similar mindsets in how they perceive Ciel. It's such a discredit to his character. They view him as just this weak and defenseless boy who was manipulated or needs rescuing (it's probably projection from their end. Those types love to paint themselves as the victims and then project onto their comfort characters. It’s such an immature mindset, like they literally cannot think beyond themselves. They have forgotten how clever and cunning Ciel actually is. Sure, he was put into the worst situation possible, and under stress and grief at the time of their meeting, but he holds the reins, uses Sebastian as his chest piece, and he was the one who set the conditions to their arrangement.
Yana conveys this so well in the extra chapter of Arthur Doyle's fairytales. Ciel doesn't want to be saved; he wants to be here.
No.4147
>>4146alexa play j cole, no role modelz
"don't save her, she don't wanna be saved~"
No.4148
All this talk makes me laugh becaus the last time I interacted with the fandom was around 2011 or 2012 when everyone was still talking about the 2nd season and the manga. I wasn't in English and the discussions were typically "omg what's going to happen in the next episode/chapter?" and "Elizabeth is useless" (that was before the Campania arc for context) and "I hate Claude". Thinking about how some of the people you're all complaining about weren't even born yet when the manga started should be the number one argument as to why their opinions don't matter by the way.
No.4149
>>4146nona what else can i say if not ily? i completely agree with everything you said. i wanted to talk more about how ciel's character is misunderstood as well in my first post, but i was afraid of it getting too long.
the fact that antis project onto ciel and it shapes up their view of his personality and his dynamics with sebastian erroneously is so, so true. most antis are women, and ever since the very start of kuroshitsuji, ciel has been a self-insert of sorts for the girls. i think this is partly the intention of yana herself too, though thankfully ciel doesn't suffer from the lack of personality that is often found in characters with this role for the readers.
but in the past, the women who identified with ciel did not see sebastian as the big bad wolf. they acknowledged his layered character and it made him even more attractive. i guess many younger women in the fandom these days are the ~special snowflake~ kind who love to play the victim.
another interesting thing is the views of men into kuroshitsuji, too. they've always been a bit of a minority, so gauging a sample of what they think can be hard, but back in the day, it was very obvious that they all wanted to be sebastian lol. and it just made sense, because sebastian is the more masculine out of the two, both physically and in his role within the relationship, he is the strong guy who protects the weaker one, is super charming and popular with women and is a very active character who is able to do everything.
now i've noticed a rise of men who identify with ciel, which is so fascinatig to me because the more passive position that ciel has evidently appeals to a generation of men who follows the "soft boi" aesthetic, want mommy gf and refuse to do anything. and of course, they too paint sebastian like evil incarnate and ciel as a poor little thing with no agency in their relationship
and omg the ice king chapter is so beautiful. lizzy being btfo'd was so satisfying to see lol
No.4151
>>4149Thank you! I'm happy to see that others agree. Ciel is such a great character, I hate how he's been misrepresented.
Pretty much the only male fans of kuro I've seen have come from 4chan and they pretty much see Ciel as their boywife, while Sebastian is seen as their competition, kek. I guess I can't be surprised. Femboys are popular now and for some reason all shotas have been absorbed into that group.
No.4153
>>4152the adaptation of the asthma scene in book of circus did not disappoint, it was so hot. i have high hopes for the tentacle sex, though i dont think it's the same studio anymore? not sure
No.4154
>>4153Yes, kuro has been with CloverWorks since the Public School Arc. I'm really curious to see how tomorrow turns out too. I hope they don't disappoint.
No.4158
>>4157someone on twitter said that it represents him choosing sebastian over everyone else. yana tweeted that ciel's choice represents him choosing revenge over everything else. antis immediately jumped on sebaciels calling them delusional and the usual stuff, lmfao
btw anyone else likes vincent x diederich?
No.4159
>>4158the discourse is whack. much like a chip with salsa, sebastian is the best vehicle for revenge. Even just for this reason, ciel still needs him and will choose him again and again (anne made some cute art, always a banger)
I love them ahh. You just know that vincent and diedrich fucked around in school at some point. that butler nursing was an adorable chapter. vincent is such a freak
No.4160
>>4159i swear antis are always up to start the dumbest discourse imaginable, and it all falls apart even more miserably when you remember that yana drew shotacon of characters that look exactly like sebastian and ciel. if i was an anti i wouldnt even have started the series. now that we have them back together 24/7 in a luxury hotel i can just picture antis with a soyjak face at every new chapter we'll get
vincent is indeed a freak omg and they're in my ships that canonically at least frotted back in school list. it's interesting because they remind me of sebaciel in a lot of ways, you can tell that yana likes this dynamic
cute pic nona ♥
No.4161
Why isn't Sebaciel canon? Yana is a fujo, her audience are all fujos, so what's stopping her? I'm not in the fandom, just genuinely curious
No.4162
>>4160it was always strange to me that there are so many new fans who are against the shipping aspect of the series. sure, kuro isn't as in your face as something like loveless but it's obvious what kind of series this is. they are truly delusional.
kek yana is so committed to her aesthetic. she delivers the same gift in a different package each time
No.4163
>>4161I think it's because Kuroshitsuji gets published in a shounen magazine, their editors probably won't allow it. Maybe it's time for her to upgrade to a seinen magazine or something the way Araki did with Jojo.
No.4164
>>4161as
>>4163 said it's likely because of the magazine kuro is published on. i think this has to do with yana's own taste too though, i have a feeling that even if she could canonize sebaciel she would not. she's said before she thinks writing romance is exhausting and she feels more comfortable with action-centered stories.
i like it better this way too tbh. the tension, subtext and subtle eroticism of their relationship is what draws me to the ship and it'd be lost if they became canon.
i've always been more of a fanon shipper fujo than a BL reader one tho
No.4171
>>4163>>4162Kuroshitsuji is the only bl-hinting manga I would read continuously. Straight canon bl is boring. With kuroshitsuji you have other plot aspects and it is the action and other character interactions that makes it whole. That's why it's so popular because it's a complete story and it doesn't only focus on the main pair but develops the other characters as well.
No.4172
>>4154I don't like the cgi teacups
No.4174
>>4172I hadn't even noticed the cgi teacups.
I've only ever noticed the horses
No.4200
>>4199What what WHAT??? What the hell is this?? New chapter??
No.4202
>>4199What if his neck tattoo is a mark just like Ciel's mark on his eye or Alois' mark on his tongue? What if it covers much more than his neck? Maybe this new guy signed a contract with another demon and he's getting both of them confused for some reason? It's insane how much more interesting the manga became once Sebastian and Ciel came back.
No.4208
>>4199I have lost ALL respect for this dumbass (lovingly)
>>4202Could be true, Nonners? I'd bet on an imposter tease sometime soon.
I loved how crazy and dramatic things have gotten. I'm glad the leading boys are back.
No.4209
>>4199lol sebastian is becoming more and more human and it is so cute to see. he's so silly
yana really went for the bpd ex trope… i giggled the whole chapter especially at ciel wanting to know all about sebastian's contractors. jealousy? ♡
No.4221
>>4216of course! The manga drop is like a holiday for me, kek
No.4222
>>4216I will post here anytime a new chapter will drop, I don't talk about the latest arcs to friends because they haven't read every yet and screaming about it on social media isn't the same.
No.4250
>>4249I never read the manga so my first thought was that it's a hilariously complicated ruse to create a whole amish fantasy village to trick a child into making a WMD, not to mention the hilarity of werewolves and witch magic being fake but demons and reapers aren't.
No.4251
>>4250Storywise it's still the same as the manga. I was talking about some changes in the art style/ how cloverworks presented the scenes. I just feel like the manga has more of an impact. Sully's whole world crumbled around her, I just didn't feel the anime reflected enough of that mood.
No.4282
>>4281>if you prefer me "beastly" I'll act the part for you.Oh my god Sebastian is so embarrassing! An ancient demon being so pussywhipped by a little boy, to the point where he starts enjoying behaving like a human servant and being demonic and "beastly" becomes an act he has to put on for him. That is so, so goddamn pathetic I love it!
Also, I'm so ready for
Ciel in a dress (again) next episode!
No.4286
>>4283I want that but with cigarette smoke in my face…
No.4318
>>4317God damn that veiny fist… Cloverworks really worked hard
No.4338
>>4317That episode was incredible! So many of the scenes were just beautiful. I especially loved this frame of Sebastian, it was always my favorite manga scene of him. Cloverworks did a great job with this one.
I hope we also get a filler episode at the end of this arc, like how they ended Public School. Would love to see the Diedie cooking segment extra. It was hilarious, I really lost it at Vi realizing that one of his sons is as much of a psychopath as he is. Crazy really runs in the family kek.