/f/ - Fandom Generals

I don't mean this in a rude way, but I don't understand fellow Louis enjoyers who ship him with the protagonist, considering Louis's entire character arc is so heavily intertwined with an entirely different character. Like, integrally. To love Louis is to know he is pining for More. And all the complicated mess that comes with it… yeah. That's the plot of Metaphor.

That aside, I'd love to hear from someone into Louis/Will and see what they find so compelling about it as a ship. Maybe there's a fic that can get me into it? Because it's genuinely starting to feel like I'm missing out on a good chunk of fandom simply because I don't vibe with them as a pairing, which makes me sad lol.

I get that it's the standard "default" ship, as previously discussed in the thread, so maybe that's the crux of it and nothing more. The game really does push the idea that Louis is the protag's archnemesis, but it falls flat–to me, at least–due to very surface-level protag/antag interactions (and I say this as someone who lives for protagonist/antagonist OTPS in other franchises).

Other Louis ships (not even just my Preferred Ship) end up feeling more appealing because there's something personal there, whereas Louis/Will stay very… broad in their conflict? It's less about them, on any interpersonal level, and more about "the world." Which is fine. But even pairings with very little canon interaction, like Louis/Strobl, feel more "emotional" in that regard, due to Louis's burning of Halia and how that has affected Strohl.

Maybe I'm too picky, and I'm just rambling at this point.

>>3845
>(and I say this as someone who lives for protagonist/antagonist OTPS in other franchises).
Same, I feel like the biggest problem for Louis/Will for me personally is that there is no reciprocation on Will's part? He doesn't return the obsession or the hate, or even compassion, he's just completely neutral about him. To bring a somewhat similar pair in Persona, I like MC/Adachi because of their interactions and their parallels and how genuinely interesting the contrast between both is, and they actually interacted significantly together.
With Louis, he never seems THAT interested in the Protagonist as people make him to be. And neither is Will head over heels over Louis like people make him in fanart and fanfic either.
People try comparing Louis to Akechi, but it's really not the same and it's not gonna be the same in a re-release either.
I feel like really, a lot of what people like about it is that it's easier to see Louis top somebody if it's through Will, and people's thirst over Louis wins over significant characterization.
Whenever I see Louis/Will even from japanese artists, it's usually "Louis-sama and then Will, his object of affection" but nothing is ever said about Will beyond projection here and there "I felt (this way) about Louis, then Will must have felt the same".
It's disappointing to know that this will be the ship Atlus will be trying to pander to and already is through the Expo artwork but there really is not much going for it. Louis has more significant relationships with other people and it won't even get a quarter of the attention Louis/Will does which is a shame

>>3846
I worry that we'll get a Louis Follower Bond…. I don't want a Louis follower bond. I do however want to hear more about his everyday life with his harem. I do want more stuff with Strohl and Basilio and MC, too.

I BEAT THE FINAL BOSS. And now, there's an epilogue…? We'll see. It's 3 AM here, so I'm going to bed. Also, I now ship Louis with More, although they feel more versatile, in my preferences.

>>3846
>>3845
Can I ask, where is all the Louis/More coming from? I think they are a bit shippy, but I also feel like I missed something that could easily be overlooked.

>>3848
Louis's motivations stem from having met More in his childhood (he says to Will that a man came to the Elda village which was his father the King, and later on the Player ends up discovering that More was the King and his twink self was the one that went to the Sanctum).
Having met the man gave him "a dream" and despite having killed him, he still speaks of him fondly. His 'dream' shattered after the village burning (according to Louis) but I'm sure that it happened right after the Prince curse accusations fell on him.
He feels resentful of the King for his incompetence towards the Kingdom but most importantly, he's still stuck in the mentality that he "lied" to him by not fulfilling the dream he gave him (and that's why he hates lies, because an unfulfilled dream is the same as a lie and he says those lines word for word).
Despite Louis's resentment, his sole moment of vulnerability in the game when he doesn't put on airs and pretend anything else is when he's alone in the skybound avatar, and says he doesn't blame the King for what happened (becoming the people's scapegoat) and that he will finish his abandoned ideals. Louis has kept going through the game preaching about his ideals, but Louis's ideals themselves are those of the King's novel.
Moreover, he's kept the novel with him all this time despite knowing who wrote it and why, and he never got rid of it.
From More's side of things, the thing that may allude to them having been connected is the vague "friend" More mentions in his Bond Rank 5. He doesn't remember who the person was, but he had been deeply hurt by their betrayal (and this betrayal may possibly be the King's feelings of knowing Louis 'cursed the prince' back then, believeing the false accusations)
It's basically going back to revisit the text once you know all the twists and connect everything together. People don't ship them so much because it's not like it's "More" from Akademeia that interacts with him as you see in the game, but a connection in the past that it's only mentioned but not shown. So it doesn't cross people's minds for them to interact or be related, and most don't like or care for the Old Man King.
Tried to post game screencaps but the size is too big, fuck

>>3848
I wrote a bit about it here >>3714, but reading that post back it probably isn't detailed enough since I was speaking to another Louis/More anon. It really is a ship that is kind of backloaded–easy to overlook until it hits you with a ton of bricks in the late game. Then you sort of see everything with new eyes upon ng+.

It's easy to dismiss Louis's feelings towards the king (aka More) as hatred, but we see this isn't true through his actions imo. I'll be using the king and More interchangeably as I explain.

More came to the sanctum when Louis was a child, before the sanctum was razed by Forden. (+1 point for age gap yearning btw) We can assume More himself gave Louis the fantasy novel, since More wrote it. Since then, Louis has been enamored with the content in the book to the point of carrying with it him even AFTER everything–after the king erroneously believes Louis's cursed the prince and banishes him to another post, after the king becomes Forden's puppet, giving up his ideals, etc.

Louis's attachment to the novel, and therefore More, feels very… romantic to me? You can see his frustration and disappointment in that September scene–"I saw and knew the passion in your heart"–and yet he still carries that damn book with him the. entire. game. It reads to me that he still holds those values close, and even after everything, he won't stop until he sees the world he's dreamed of (though, admittedly, distorted).

There are also a lot of fun little lines in the game that make it clear to me that Louis is very… bitter? They just feel kinda shippy to me lmao. Lines such as "youthful years of debauchery" in reference to More's time in the sanctum, where he sleeps with the eldan queen and has the prince.

>>3849
Forgot to mention it in my reply, but you reminded me–from More's side, we also have pic rel. They have the capacity to understand each other more than we end up seeing. :'((

>>3846
>I feel like really, a lot of what people like about it is that it's easier to see Louis top somebody if it's through Will, and people's thirst over Louis wins over significant characterization.
So self-insertion through fujoism, basically.

>>3847
Congrats! The epilogue is cute.

I don't think we'd get a Louis follower bond, as it just doesn't make any sense in the context of the story–the protag is the one who becomes a Louis "supporter," just for a little while, not the other way around. I'd be curious how they'd spin it, I guess, if the writers go that route. I also want more about his everyday life… again, not sure how that would work in-game. Probably better for some sort of spin-off media.

>>3851
>>3849
Thank you, I imagined it might be something like that. Glad to know I didn't have to backtrack.

Started an NG+ in order to enjoy the story with all the pieces in place, and try the dub.

Dubbing is not a thing in my culture, so I'll only go with it if it does a a good job of translating the feeling intended by the script. This game also isn't set in Japan, which makes it feel less fake.

I never thought I would say this, but… It's good. Really good so far. I'm just at the start, and the work put into making these guys sound alive is just breathtaking. They're even consistent with the accents. And the accents don't sound fake? At least not to my ears.

I'm playing Will as a money-hungry lil' shit this time, since the story still advances despite that.

Also, playing it again does make it more fun now that you know the entire puzzle, which is a mark of really good writing. Better than I expected from even a Megaten game.

(Sadly, some of the line seem auto-translated. :()

>>3853
Update:

Why TF are they calling him Louise. Is he a blond housewife.

>>3860
>Is he a blond housewife.
Yes
But real answer, I don't know. That's definitely the most annoying part of the dub. The name Louis does come from french and the english equivalent is Lewis so they're probably trying to say it as if it were so.

>>3860
>>3861
Still, the French pronunciation of Louis is "Loo-ee" so I don't know why they didn't just go with that. The jp "Rui" sounds closer.

>>3862
Yes. Exactly. I thought everyone knew this, which makes it a bit worrying to imagine that people don't…

>>3861
I will buy this explanation, since the dub really goes hard with the 'Ye Olde English', so it would suit.

Strohl's English voice gives me shivers, it's so good! He sounds noble, yet roughed-up, which suits him. And More sounds older than his years, which makes his age hard to place, which is perfect for him. (I fear meeting Zorba…)

A bad or mediocre dub forced on me will always be resented, but since I'm allowed to choose JP, I'm more inclined to be favourable towards this one. This one really draws me in, the same way the JP probably does to JPs.

What if Louis ended up in Akademia after his 'death'? And ended up sealed with More?

>>3863
What if, anon…

I think there's a lot of things to consider. Particularly that More does transform into his old man self and speak with the queen directly after Louis dies, and I can't say Louis would be very happy walking in on that LOL. Plus, old man More disappears in that scene, presumably moving on for good. (But somehow Plateau is still around… Can anyone make sense of that or am I stupid?)

That aside, it's fun to imagine a scenario where More stays in his "More" form, and he and Louis are locked in Akademeia together somehow hehe. I actually like thinking about this in a variety of different ways–like maybe Louis reverts to a child, as he was in the sanctum, but retains his memories (or not!), and he and More partake in fun little hijinks in Akademeia. Maybe they write a new novel together…

Or maybe Louis stays the same. He's all bruised and battered from the fight with the protagonist, and More nurses him back to health somehow (hurt/comfort leading to romance). They fuck on every surface. That also works.

delusional i'm sorry

>>3866

>It's fun to imagine a scenario where More stays in his "More" form, and he and Louis are locked in Akademeia together somehow hehe. I actually like thinking about this in a variety of different ways–like maybe Louis reverts to a child, as he was in the sanctum, but retains his memories (or not!), and he and More partake in fun little hijinks in Akademeia. Maybe they write a new novel together…

That's hella cute, I always imagined their relationship as being vaugely paternal from More's side. Him being strong enough to overpower child Louis is likely a good thing in this scenario, and growing to love him in Will's place is likely healing for both of them.

>Or maybe Louis stays the same. He's all bruised and battered from the fight with the protagonist, and More nurses him back to health somehow (hurt/comfort leading to romance). They fuck on every surface. That also works.

This speaks to me on a deep level, especially if More has his memories back still, and just won't let Louis die due to his own ideals. Even better if More is conflicted, due to being aware of the age gap, but still going through with it, after noticing how damn touch-starved Louis is, and Louis actively pushing for it, even if he's bad at understanding what he wants, due to lack of trust in everything.

**>Plateau is still around
In the context of my culture, it makes sense, you can't own a cat. They are seen as working animals, and are considered half-wild, even when kept as spoiled pets. The cat chooses it's home and it's master, and this one has decided that More and Will are friends.**

trying to entice other people to the thread with non-ruimoa art.

>>3877
Am I the only Strohl fangirl here? He feels like a more female-oriented version of the 'guy who becomes your friend at the start of an Atlus game' Like the final evolution or something.

Like, we started with Junpei, who is a good bro (And still is when you're female), but doesn't look great. Then we moved to Yosuke who is inexplicably popular, so I assume he has some appeal. Then we got Ryuji, who is really cute, but doesn't feel like he was created specifically for the female players.

And then, Strohl. Good backstory, cute looks, very supportive and the game never makes fun of you for choosing him. Also good relationship with protag, and a character route which is close to his character's theme.

I love that while the game is about making a world where noble status matters less, and openly showing some corrupt-ass nobles, Strohl is very dedicated in his mission to care for his people, and this is not treated as a fault or something to laugh at.

He's very earnest, and I hope we can take him places and give him presents in a potential re-release.

>>3884
>Then we moved to Yosuke who is inexplicably popular, so I assume he has some appeal.
heh
Not the anon you're replying to but I think Strohl is fine. Yeah he really does feel as if Atlus decided to make a proper 'friend' character that feels a little more fujobaity but without losing his own character. He actually does feel more fleshed out than the Protagonist himself so it's not like he stops being relevant after the first arc, he's just saying/thinking everything which is a mixed bag for most people.
I can see why he's so liked, although I'm not one to get attached much to the 'first friend' character. He's definitely better than Yosuke for sure.

>>3884
>Am I the only Strohl fangirl here?
This is so funny because Strohl is indubitably the most popular character for fujos and non-fujo women alike, but for some reason us weirdos have congregated here. I do quite like Strohl, though. He's handsome. I wish his relationship with the protagonist had a little more flavor but I still understand why it's appealing to the masses.

I love him so much it's painful

good ruimoarning, thread

sigh where's all the zorba fuck
i'm so depressed

>>3970
There's only like 2 artists doing Zorba aren't they?
That reminds me, I'm not sure if you were also the same zorbanon from /vg/ but I'm sure the (third) Louis poster is not here. I wish they were here at least if to discuss something even if I may disagree. I was waiting for the manga chapter thinking it was today but that's only until Sunday

Batlin looks so cool. Though nothing much happened this chapter, just explaining the plot a lot more throughly.

>>3973
There's a few artists, I think. At least enough to have a ruizoru group draw.
No, I'm not the zorbanon from /vg/ (I mostly stick to this thread for posting), but I do hope all the 4chan metanons come here and start discussion!

>>3999
The manga is a bit of a snoozefest and has gone off in a, hm, interesting direction, but the art is nice at least.

>>4001
Oh I see, because /vg/ Zorbanon seemed to be the one starting most discussion. They post on 8/v/ but the other Louis poster I think likely gave up. I wish more people would come here too

>>4001
I think in one part, it's interesting for being more Metaphor media (because there isn't much) and I'm torn between the changes in the story which may or may not be interesting depending on what they do, but the release does seem to be kind of boring thus far, and angers some people more than anything.
Also More hasn't shown up other than the very first chapter what the fuck

>>4006
The woes of being in a small fandom.

Has anyone read any good fic lately? Planning on writing anything?

>>4006
>it's interesting for being more Metaphor media (because there isn't much)
Personally I'd rather see something like gag manga that focuses on silly interactions between characters than whatever this adaption is lmao. I know I can't be too picky, though. My biggest wish is for the manga writers to take some time and craft the inter-party relationships in a little more detail outside of what was shown in-game. I'm not holding my breath.
And yes, needs more More.

>>3884
>Junpei, who is a good bro (And still is when you're female), but doesn't look great.
junpei slander

>>4006
>>4046
i think it's too early to say whether the manga adaptation is good or not.
i like some of the paneling and expressiveness of the characters.
the small changes at least give me something to guess about in regards to what will happen next but i also hope they make bigger changes.
i don't want to just see the game repeated but in manga form.

part of me also thinks they won't end up doing anything interesting with any of the changes though and there won't be much point to the manga outside of the art.
but i do still look forward to the monthly chapters.

there is some questioning from basilio if louis even **transformed zorba but zorba mentions something like how louis took a wretch like him and turned him into a man of power.
but he also could also be referring to the general idea of louis giving zorba power/status for joining him and acting as his right hand man.**

i question things like:
the "authenticity" of zorba overcoming the melancholia and keeping his sanity after his transformation. if louis really did transform zorba, it would mean zorba wasn't alone during it. and louis wanted people to overcome their anxieties on their own. but with zorba being a crazy zealot, i think just having the person he worships with him would be enough to save him from the madness of melancholia. it's shown that having a "god" to worship can ease people's burdens.

and there's also the question of if zorba's transformation even counts as the same one everyone else would be going through if louis really did get to turn everyone into "new humans". was the melancholia the same intensity? did louis do a different kind of experiment on zorba? etc.

what if the manga adds something for louis and more after louis is killed?

>>4176
Most of the people I know hate the manga but to be honest I don't mind it. I am a bit annoyed at some of the changes but since everything's so different I'll just tag along the ride and see what the fuck is going on.

>>4180
Maybe Zorba is half transformed because while he's likely very single-minded (eg. following Louis) we're shown a little beforehand that he does have that 'complex' about Louis not taking him seriously enough, so having even a small doubt in yourself is likely enough to create a botched melancholization, maybe? Or maybe you are supposed to have some monster-like traits alongside the human appearance, who knows.

>>4181
I wish but I'm not holding my hopes up…I keep convincing myself that their connection is intentional and that at the very least More owes an apology to Louis or getting a punch in the face

i wasn't sure if i should use spoiler tags here but i think it's probably fine to just not bother.

>>4183
what do people you know hate about the manga?

interesting points about zorba.
i personally believe you are supposed to have monster like traits going off how louis didn't see will's normal appearance after getting through melancholization as his true form.
but you could also be right about zorba's transformation just being botched.

he also says something about just unleashing anxiety since it's magla/power.
i find that interesting since you aren't supposed to unleash your anxieties onto others, according to louis.
maybe that has something to do with it being botched?
but zorba's whole transformation is just questionable.

i'm holding out hope for any more and louis content.
atlus wrote louis' whole story around "more" so it just makes sense to add more onto it if louis comes back in any way.

there's just something funny about seeing someone actually doing the mocap for gallica.
i didn't know atlus used mocap til i saw this.
not they actually probably use it for games other than metaphor too.

if more does get to interact with louis, i think louis should have the realization that he gave up on the world just like more did.
he should see that he became similar to more in some ways even though he was trying to avoid that.

some humans like those tentas who give you advice aren't even hostile.
and some humans aren't even people who lost themselves to anxiety.
some have mated and had babies.

and i'm not sure will and his partisans would be satsified with just killing any humans that cause trouble/complaints from people.
since many of them were just weak people who succumbed to melancholia.
and not all of them are even hostile.
some are even outright helpful.

so they could do something with trying to negotiate with humans (like demons in smt) or something.

and iirc will's human transformation didn't get to complete.
his mom helped him out of it before it could finish.
(could also explain why will looked normal while zorba was partially a monster after melancholization) but mainly, what if humans can never truly go back to their original selves after melancholization?
will's a weird exception because his transformation didn't finish.

and if louis does come back, even in novel form, what if he retains monster characteristics?
that's what he wanted for everyone, for them all to become "new humans" so maybe he would have to have monster characteristics too as part of his ideal form.

and if they go that route, and they start seeing the monster humans as their own entities and not just monsters to be killed, it opens the door for a human party member.
will would've had a member from each tribe as part of his team.
all tribes came from humans and can turn into humans but if humans get to just live on and breed more humans they may as well be their own "tribe."

they might do something with all the people having to come to terms with having it in them to become a human too and that might also allow for there to be acceptance for humans (as long as they aren't harmful).
and this will somehow have something to do with will getting a Monster human party member.

>>4186
spoiler tags maybe fail but I think it's fine to use them imo, though I think if/any other people post itt they'll use some spoilers too
>what do people you know hate about the manga?
Mostly that it's not following the story 1:1. I've seen some complaints about the 'shonen-y' aspects like making Strohl a comedy relief character when he isn't or Will being too 'hotheaded' (complaints about Will are stupid when he doesn't even have a personality in the first place)
This isn't a person so I doubt it counts but Hektor was also a dog that Glodel could control his Melancholization at will on and off afaik. But it may be different on an actual person, Zorba's permanently disfigured and it's not like he can 'turn it off' (though it's weird how his fuckhuge hand is not visible beforehand already but that's likely just for impact)

>>4189
>and if they go that route, and they start seeing the monster humans as their own entities and not just monsters to be killed, it opens the door for a human party member.
I honestly thought this was going to be the twist of the game at some point because Atlus loves doing that thing with Shadows in Persona so I'm surprised they didn't do it for Metaphor sort of
But all eldans are humans and so are all the tribes inherently "human", so the only way to do this is really only just through an Elda or Elda-turned-Human but I don't want Louis party member and I don't think it'd work

>>4190
i personally thought it would've been cooler to have will lean more into his innocent, soft-spoken personality.
he's generic in the manga but also more expressive.
i think it will still be fun to see what they do with him and the manga in general.
i hope they do crazy stuff with it.

good point about glodell's dog.
i didn't realize he was messing with hektor's melancholization.
but that power also seemed to be unique to glodell.

>>4191
it doesn't have to be louis (i think that could work though).
it could be anyone transformed to be human or any natural born human (monster).
but idk.
maybe that would be really weird.
sometimes i just theorize really weird stuff.

zorba's design makes me think of an oni.
a demon like creature that has 1-3 horns.
sometimes having 3 eyes.
but they're usually red/blue skinned or something.
there is some association with oni being people who passed on too.
originally the Chinese character 鬼 / oni meant "soul of the deceased"
and zorba's specialty is necromancy.

>>4192
>he's generic in the manga but also more expressive.
Really? I guess he's generic in the sense he feels like an average shonen protag but in the game he just feels like 'generic good boy' template like Atlus does with their MCs

>>4193
Oni are usually depicted with a horn in the middle afaik, but I more or less can see what you mean. Also, that does make me think, that it's likely that not all traits of half-bloodness gets represented with just having half of something, Zorba has 1 horn but Will has none.

>>4194
>average shonen protag
yeah, that's what i mean.
i know what you mean too about will not having much personality ingame but that's mainly because he's forced to be a self insert.
i think it would be interesting to see will be his own character with the template already provided.

>oni horn in the middle
yeah, true.
but idk.
just reminded me of an oni.

>mixed races not always having half of their respective tribe's traits
true.
but what does that mean?

>>4195
>but what does that mean?
Nothing really, but it did make me wonder how other half bloods would look like since we only know Maria and Zorba.
The game keeps treating Will as an Elda even though he's more of a half-blood by definition

>>4196
>spoiler
i know.
it's weird but tbf he lacks clemar characteristics.

i wonder what a half eugief would look like if they can even mate with the other tribes.
or even a half paripus.
would they have 1 animal ear?

so what were these ghoulish people?
partially melancholized people or something else?
will we see them again for the dlc/rerelease?
maybe they'll be part of the new plot.

>>4197
Probably no ears in such case, or be an ungodly abomination that needs to be put down

>>4198
I think they were people on the brink of humanization or being consumed by anxiety. They never explained it fully, yeah. I have a feeling the King was going to a similar path since he also had those floating dark magla things.

>>4201
>the King was going to a similar path since he also had those floating dark magla things.
Ah, good catch. I rewatched the opening scene again and there are a few of the black magla shards floating around the king as he's in bed. I'm not seeing any floating around him anywhere else, though (ghost Hyth or otherwise).

>>4196
The game keeps treating Will as an Elda even though he's more of a half-blood by definition
Curious what you mean by "more of a half-blood by definition." Imo there's really no more or less about it, he IS a mix of both elda and and clemar, but I suppose More's genes just lost out here, lol.

>>4201
>ungodly abomination that needs to be put down
i really want to see it now

>the king, black magla
that makes sense.

the ghoulish people all just run away at the end though.
where do they go and will they be back?

>>4204
I think that "by definition" I meant that though he looks visually like "an Elda" (having no other traits) he's still a half-blood. Though the game still calls him an Elda all the way until the end which is a bit annoying.

>>4206
I think some of them did die (there's a lot of covered up corpses in Brilehaven and Grand Trad for example). Some of them may have gone rogue, who knows. Maybe they turned into mob human monsters you find in different dungeons.

the game never really gives the player any reason to think trusting others is bad.
no one ever really lets the player down, except maybe some npcs that don't really affect anything.
npcs start acting crazy near the end.
but some of your bonds and even other candidates also go out of their way to help will garner support during that time frame when the npcs are acting crazy and they even successfully calm a lot of them down.
everyone in your party is loyal.
why would the player want to cull all these people?

even when you have to trust a previously antagonistic figure like joanna, the game rewards the main cast.
there was some question of if she'd even show up to do her part at the brilhaven contest but it's quickly resolved.
she even gives her life up because she trusts the main cast to make a better world (and repay her crimes) and i'd say even her trust was rewarded in that will does make a better world even if his world isn't perfect either.

not necessarily saying the game would've been better to just have everyone betraying each other for no reason, but with how the game's story rewards the party for trusting others it's harder to see louis' pov.
he's basically distrusting because he was betrayed twice.
and that's mainly why he wants to cull most the population (the game does also use the crazy npcs in favor of his argument but it's kinda moot since most of the npcs get calmed down by will supporters. i assume everyone who ended up in favor of will was calmed down).
and louis even still had zorba, who'd do anything for him no matter what.